Unhappy with U.S., some think Canada offers better future

NEW YORK -- For all they share economically and culturally, Canada and the United States are increasingly at odds on basic social policies -- to the point that at least a few discontented Americans are planning to move north and try their neighbors' way of life.

A husband and wife in Minnesota, a college student in Georgia, a young executive in New York. Though each has distinct motives for packing up, they agree the United States is growing too conservative and believe Canada offers a more inclusive, less selfish society.

"For me, it's a no-brainer," said Mollie Ingebrand, a puppeteer from Minneapolis who plans to go to Vancouver with her lawyer husband and 2-year-old son.

"It's the most amazing opportunity I can imagine. To live in a society where there are different priorities in caring for your fellow citizens."

For decades, even while nurturing close ties with the United States, Canadians have often chosen a different path -- establishing universal health care, maintaining ties with Cuba, imposing tough gun control laws. Two current Canadian initiatives, to decriminalize marijuana and legalize same-sex marriage, have pleased many liberals in the United States and irked conservatives.

New York executive Daniel Hanley, 31, was arranging a move for himself and his partner, Tony, long before the Canadian announcement about same-sex marriage. But the timing delights him; he and Tony now hope to marry in front of their families after they emigrate to British Columbia.

"Canada has an opportunity to define itself as a leader," Hanley said. "In some ways, it's now closer to American ideals than America is."

Thomas Hodges, a computer systems major at Georgia State University, said his dismay with American politics started him thinking last year about going abroad. He recently wrote an article in a campus journal titled, "Why I Am Moving To Canada."

"I'm thinking about Toronto, though I hear it's cold up there," Hodges, a lifelong Southerner, said in a telephone interview.

Hodges, 21, complained about a "neo-conservative shift" in the United States and praised Canada's approach to health care and education.

"The U.S. educational system is unfair -- you have to live in certain areas to go to good schools," he said.

Rene Mercier, spokesman for Canada's immigration department, said any upsurge in U.S.-to-Canada immigration based on current political developments won't be detectable for a few years, because of the time required to process residency applications.

During the Vietnam War, U.S. emigration to Canada surged as thousands of young men, often accompanied by wives or girlfriends, moved to avoid the draft.

But every year since 1977, more Canadians have emigrated to the United States than vice versa -- the 2001 figures were 5,894 Americans moving north, 30,203 Canadians moving south.

Mollie Ingebrand, 34, said she has felt an affinity with Canada for many years, fueled partly by respect for its health care system. Her doubts about the United States go back even further, to a childhood spent with liberal parents in a relatively conservative part of Ohio.

"In school I was always told this is the best country on earth, and everyone else wants to be American, and that never really rang true to me," she said. "As I got older, it occurred to me there were other choices."

Ingebrand says some of her friends -- people who share her left-of-center views -- argue that she should stay at home to battle for changes here.

"I've been there and done that," she said. "I don't want to stay and fight anymore. I can have that bittersweet love for my country from somewhere else."

Hi: To be eligible for OHIP in Ontario, you have to be a Canadian citizen or have immigration status , and make your permanent and principal home in Ontario, and be physically present in Ontario 153 days in any 12-month period. You would also be covered for most services in the other provinces. I believe its pretty much the same for all provinces.
BC has had to cut a lot of services since the liberals took over from the NDP (socialist) in the last provincial election, the NDP ruined the province and left a lot of debt, but most people can't see that. They only see that they now have to pay for some procedures and drugs. '
Canadians prize their health care above all else - and don't seem to mind paying higher taxes for it.

I suppose you either pay high taxes or a a lot more for insurance. cheers

Hi: I have to disagree to a point. First of all, it just doesn't seem right, that some should receive better health care simply because they have more money. I'm not arguing for totally free care for all the poor, just a basic level, although I don't know where I'd draw the line.

Surely, prenatal care and care for new infants should be free along with equal education. Wouldn't that go a long way to helping people become more self sufficient and prosperous?

I agree that socialism generally doesn't work (Sweden is the exception).

You don't have to be poor to live in a poor environment, smoke and drink etc. Wealthy people do that a lot, but can afford rehab and medical care, and I'd guess that most of us here don't eat a proper healthy diet, excercise and are of optimal weight.

Should anyone, regardless of wealth, be eligible for a lung transplant if they smoke, should they be eligible for a new heart if they are obese?

There was a stink last year (in Ontario) about a young man who died in the ambulance, as the emergency dept. close by was full and they were rerouting patients to different hospital. (they do that regularly)
He had a severe asthma attack and died, so it hit the fan in the papers about the lack of funding for hospitals - however, the chap was a heavy smoker. Who was to blame?

Well, you know the conservative gov't took the heat for that -their fault for cutting back funding you know. So, I would say most Canadians feel that no matter what - you get looked after.

Maybe in the US it should be mandatory to carry health insurance, but from what I've heard, its not great, the HMO's are rip of artists and don't pay up etc.

We hear that there are 30 million or so people in the States without health care - and can't get medical attention - is that true? And are all low income people entitled to medicare and prescriptions? cheers

Thanks for your reply. I suspect that most of the people who are moving to Canada won't be eligible for medical care anymore than I was. And we couldn't even pay for it.

I'd also like to comment on your questions to Thommas - In the US, everyone gets care for life threatening conditions. It's a Fed'l law.
Medicaid covers the poor. Particularly children.

We hear that there are 30 million or so people in the States without health care - and can't get medical attention - is that true?

No, that isn't true. The 30 million number is the number without health insurance. Some people choose not to pay for insurance. Some of them are young (20 somethings) who would rather spend money on other things, because they don't usually have high health costs. Some are people who don't believe in medical care for religious reasons. And others are people who live in areas - as I do - where there are plenty of walk-in medical clinics. The costs in the clinics are cheap, and if you don't have any chronic disease, you spend a lot less on medical care in the clinics than you would on insurance.
And, yes, that's one reason why insurance is expensive. People who are generally healthy don't bother. The insured people are the ones with the highest costs.

Thanks. One of the big boogaboos here when there is a suggestion that we utilize private clinics, is ' we don't want an American style health care system'. There is a perception out there that millions are without health care at all, and cannot get insurance.
It makes sense that many choose not to buy it and explains the numbers.

I'm curious, what would you pay for a doctors visit at a walk in clinic, and I would be interested in knowing what it would cost for an MRI if you just wanted to have one done.

Its not possible here to request an MRI and pay for it - I believe we should have that option. It makes sense to me to have an MRI as a precaution, sort of being proactive.
I wouldn't mind having one done while I'm in Florida next year, if its not too expensive.

I don't know what an MRI would cost. I think that's one of the procedures that is hugely expensive if you just pay on your own. Most Americans can talk the ins. cos. into paying at least part. But we can always pay full price for anything.

In my area, inoculations for children are $5-15 each at the clinics, and routine health problems for all are $100 or less (bronchitis, sprains, pneumonia, ear problems, etc.) The walk-in clinic that I use most often costs $80.
At the Children's Hospitals, for really serious problems, they treat first and ask for insurance or payment later. A lot of their costs are paid by charitable contributions.

If you want to have an MRI when you are in FL, maybe you should ask one of your Canadian doctors. It's sort of a joke here, but most Canadian doctors have earned their max salary in Canada by Sep or Oct. They then take jobs on cruise ships for free room and board. Canadian doctors who don't have children in school know quite a lot about FL health care.

I could be wrong with that anecdote about Canadian doctors, but the last 3 cruises I have taken have had Canadian doctors on board.

I've never heard that about Canadian doctors - they do have a max. but they can continue earning at a lesser percentage (I believe) They are starting to charge for little things now, like signing passports and renewing prescriptions over the phone.

I did forget to mention that refugees and welfare recipients receive full coverage including prescriptions and dental. More than the working poor can get. - And the majority do not want our system to change.

I don't really know how the max salary limits work for Canadian doctors. But the last three cruises I've taken have had Canadian doctors. They've all said that Canadian doctors who don't have kids in school are attracted to cruise lines.
They get free passage for themselves and their wives, and they get more value than they could by working in Canada. It's a good deal for the doctors and the cruise lines. I'm not so sure how I'd like being a Canadian patient whose doctor was unavailable for 2-3 months.

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