What Money Buys In U.S. - Civility

The Toronto Star ^ | 7-25-03 | Jason Brooks

[Former Proud Canadian]

I have no doubt that the story related about health care in Canada is true. However, there are some "tricks" you can use to recieve better care within this system. Send me freeper mail and I will let you in on the secrets.

[ConservativeStLouisGuy]

Your point is well-taken....but....I'm NOT any different from your scenario. I just lucked-out by FIRST being born in the USA. Besides -- the conservative views that my parents passed along to me would STILL be in place had I been born in Canada....it is just that I would find life/politics FAR MORE difficult growing up in Canada as opposed to the US. Isn't it nice to know that some things always endure? -- like the good upbringing of our parents? :-)

[ConservativeStLouisGuy]

True, true, he didn't pay anything, but, as the title of the article so aptly states, CIVILITY is sometimes more important than anything else -- one cannot put a price on that (ie: that is why there was the Geneva Convention so that in times of war prisoners might feel CIVIL amongst all the horrors of war).

[ConservativeStLouisGuy]

Your point is also well-taken....as Lee Greenwood sings, God Bless The U.S.A.....

[HIDEK6]

I don't know who Brooks is and don't care. He claims to have endured 2 hours of nurse hell and had his eye problem diagnosed in 5 minutes . Then he spends a minimum of $1000 us plus traveling expenses, spends 4 hours of which 90 minutes is spent checking him out. And gets the same diagnosis . And a cup of tea.

Big deal.

But you forget, he was treated as if he were the center of the universe instead of just one more body.

BTW, I am opening a business that will kiss your ass as well as giving you a cup of tea. Only costs $250/hr.

No appointment necessary.

[Stu Cohen]

So, the Canadian health system is awful. Maybe.

The fact remains that the life expectancy of Canadians is 82 years, which ranks them among the top five countries of the world.

The life expectancy in the US is 76.9

The article was entertaining, but much more needs to be taken into account when comparing the two systems. Who's living longer? What are the infant mortality rates? Canadians are actually well cared for when compared to the health system of the world as a whole.

I have been to many inner-city US hospotal and Doctor's offices that would make the author's Toronto experiences look like crumpets with the queen. Rudeness and inefficiency is by not means a stranger to the health industry here. Not to mention malpractice and outright fraud that is quite rampant througout the entire fee-for-service system.

Actually, the poor experience he relayes with the nurses at Toronto Western are almost a mirror-image of the the experiences I have when trying to deal with Blue Cross.

Anybody ever dealt with an for-profit HMO? Thank goodness I have never had that pleasure, but I hear it can be downright dangerous.

He went to a Johns Hopkin's specialist on a cash-patient basis. If you've got a thousand bucks for an office visit at a prestigous hospital, then of course treatment will be better. Of course, many people are paying so much in taxes and insurance premiums (taxes in themselves) that they don't have $1000 left over for such specialized and personal care. What do they do? Unless you are indigent and try to climb onto the dole, chance are you are going to a doctor approved by your insurance carrier. You *will not* get this kind of polite treatment. Trust me on this one.

And last but not least, despite all that money and courtesy - they still were unable to resolve or even diagnose his problem. So John's Hopkins was courteous, but no more able to treat his condition than the Canadians.

In the end, what have we learned?

If you give people money, they'll be nice to you. Real newsflash. Diagnosis success rates may not go up, your problem may still not be solved, but at least they'll give you tea. He got a $1000 pampered visit that was no more medically effective than the free rude visit.

I was hoping for something more insightful.

[arasina]

Here is the nub of it - the employees of government monopolies inevitably, and necessarily, internalize the values of the System, whether it's the public schools, the welfare bureaucracy, or the hospital system. Once they are assimilated by the Borg, they universally treat the general public as the defeated enemy, which in fact they are, sociopolitically speaking.

My take on it: Socialism supposedly makes everyone equal ("level playing field") and thus removes (free market) competition; without competition, you lose incentive; without incentive, you lose civility and good "customer service." (Aaaah, why should I care? We're all getting paid the same thing. That guy dropped out of high school and is treated the same as me, a person with a Ph.D., so what good does it do me to be helpful? Neither of us was hired to think.)

I realize that's a simplistic description of what is obviously a more complicated issue, but that's what it boils down to for me and why I oppose it. Unions are socialistic entities. I've witnessed this type of behavior firsthand (at a company that has both union and non-union personnel).

[Snowyman]

Canadian blacks: 2% American blacks: 13%

Yes and blacks live 5 yrs less than whites .

The life expectancy of whites only in the US is 77.8 years, (2002)

And in Canada the life expectancy of all races , including blacks , Amerindians, who live 7 years less than the average, and the Inuit who live 10 years less than the average is 79.6 (2002).

Apples

[Snowyman]

No appointment necessary

I wish you well in your endeavor. My advice to you would be , Just follow your nose where ever it leads you. :)

[palmer]

And in Canada the life expectancy of all races , including blacks , Amerindians, who live 7 years less than the average, and the Inuit who live 10 years less than the average is 79.6 (2002).

Inuit? With a population of 41,000 out of 39 million? And the fact that they live 10 years less matters how?

[-YYZ-]

1) The people in Toronto are TERRIBLE drivers.

From what I hear, same as in any major US city.

5) Everyone says "out" kinda "about" funny.

I pronounce "out and about" like "oat and a boat", not "oot and a boot". How the heck do you pronouce it?

6) Milk is in plastic bags - not plastic gallons.
Or plastic jugs, or carboard cartons. Depends on the area you're in.

7) LOTS of Chinese, Filipino, Korean, Italian, Jamaican, etc ("foreign") people -- so much so that I feel in the "minority" up here. In the States that wasn't the case.

Probably also true in many major US cities. If you go most anywhere else in Canada outside the "Golden Horseshoe" or Vancouver and skin that is other than white, you will be very visibly in the minority.

9) The politicians are all Liberal (and therefore corrupt).
Ontario's government is conservative, both by name and by nature.

10) Some fries served with vinegar (YUK!!!!!!!!).
Only if you ask for it or put it on yourself. Many would argue that ketchup (or catsup) on fries is the true abomination.

12) LONG lines in the doctor's offices (lots of beaucratic tape too).
If it's not an emergency, I call my doctor's office, get an appointment, and go see her. They have my OHIP (gov't health insurance in Ontario) info in their system already for billing purposes. I can't help but wonder if this is much worse than dealing with an HMO like many (most?) working Americans. The difference being in the US you can end-run the HMO if you're willing to pay. Single-tier health care sucks, that much I will agree with.

[Snowyman]

Inuit? With a population of 41,000 out of 39 million?

Actually , that's 45,000 Inuit in Canada's population of 32 million.

We could take them out , along with the other million Aboriginals that live in Canada . After all , the similar group in the US weren't included in calculating the life expectancy of the American white population , why should the ones in Canada be. And their life expectancies are shorter than that of a black person. Hardly seems fair to include them.

If you like.

[ConservativeStLouisGuy]

Stu,

Are you sure your name isn't pronouned "stew?

All I did was post an innocent little article....sorry if it wasn't as "insightful" as you had hoped....it was just a story that caught my attention....yes, I am familiar with some of the poorer aspects of the health care system in the United States....I'm not saying that it is all peaches and cream (there is always room for improvement --- no matter what kind of health system it is). Hope you're feeling better. :-)

[ConservativeStLouisGuy]

How about a nice bowl of lobster stew? :-)



(my attempt at being a little light-hearted....and not always being so serious....life is short, Stu, lighten up)

[ConservativeStLouisGuy]

1) The people in Toronto are TERRIBLE drivers.

From what I hear, same as in any major US city.

You can't go on what you hear....they ARE terrible drivers....trust me....I've driven on Toronto roads for the last 2+ months (even near Harbourfront).

5) Everyone says "out" kinda "about" funny.

I pronounce "out and about" like "oat and a boat", not "oot and a boot". How the heck do you pronouce it?

I pronounce "out and about" like "out and about" --- the way they are supposed to be pronouced, why do you ask? :-)

6) Milk is in plastic bags - not plastic gallons. Or plastic jugs, or carboard cartons. Depends on the area you're in.

It's all relative....plastic milk cartons are easier to carry, though...

7) LOTS of Chinese, Filipino, Korean, Italian, Jamaican, etc ("foreign") people -- so much so that I feel in the "minority" up here. In the States that wasn't the case.

Probably also true in many major US cities. If you go most anywhere else in Canada outside the "Golden Horseshoe" or Vancouver and skin that is other than white, you will be very visibly in the minority.

Wrong-o....have you actually BEEN to Toronto? How do you know all of these amazing facts? :-)

9) The politicians are all Liberal (and therefore corrupt).

Ontario's government is conservative, both by name and by nature.

I have not found this to be the case....I read the Toronto Star, the Scarborough Mirror and the daily Metro --- and believe me they ARE quite liberal...

10) Some fries served with vinegar (YUK!!!!!!!!).

Only if you ask for it or put it on yourself. Many would argue that ketchup (or catsup) on fries is the true abomination.

Not me --- ate mine with fries all my life...

12) LONG lines in the doctor's offices (lots of beaucratic tape too).

If it's not an emergency, I call my doctor's office, get an appointment, and go see her. They have my OHIP (gov't health insurance in Ontario) info in their system already for billing purposes. I can't help but wonder if this is much worse than dealing with an HMO like many (most?) working Americans. The difference being in the US you can end-run the HMO if you're willing to pay. Single-tier health care sucks, that much I will agree with.

Hooorah! We agree on something! WOOOOOO-HOOOOOO!!!! :-)

[-YYZ-]

1) The people in Toronto are TERRIBLE drivers. From what I hear, same as in any major US city. You can't go on what you hear....they ARE terrible drivers....trust me....I've driven on Toronto roads for the last 2+ months (even near Harbourfront).

Well, I'm into motorcycling and guys constantly complain about what the drivers are like in their major metro area, and it often sounds just as bad, if not even worse than what I see here.

7) LOTS of Chinese, Filipino, Korean, Italian, Jamaican, etc ("foreign") people -- so much so that I feel in the "minority" up here. In the States that wasn't the case. Probably also true in many major US cities. If you go most anywhere else in Canada outside the "Golden Horseshoe" or Vancouver and skin that is other than white, you will be very visibly in the minority. Wrong-o....have you actually BEEN to Toronto? How do you know all of these amazing facts? :-)

I live in Hamilton, just down the road. I don't spend much time in downtown Toronto, if that's the area you mean. Yeah, there's a lot of immigrants in Toronto (and Vancouver). Canada allows a bigger % of our population to immigrate here every year, and they almost all come to Toronto. Like I said, though, most of the rest of Canada is lily-white - don't take Toronto as representative of most of the country.

I have not found this to be the case....I read the Toronto Star, the Scarborough Mirror and the daily Metro --- and believe me they ARE quite liberal...

Try the Toronto Sun and the National Post (although it's getting less so all the time)

10) Some fries served with vinegar (YUK!!!!!!!!). Only if you ask for it or put it on yourself. Many would argue that ketchup (or catsup) on fries is the true abomination. Not me --- ate mine with fries all my life...

Well, despite being called french fries, the french fry/chip as we eat it is really a British thing (as in fish'n'chips), and vinager is the common topping there.

[ConservativeStLouisGuy]

1) The people in Toronto are TERRIBLE drivers. From what I hear, same as in any major US city. You can't go on what you hear....they ARE terrible drivers....trust me....I've driven on Toronto roads for the last 2+ months (even near Harbourfront).

Well, I'm into motorcycling and guys constantly complain about what the drivers are like in their major metro area, and it often sounds just as bad, if not even worse than what I see here.

The problem in Toronto is that there are a LOT of Chinese drivers who, even after taking a "driving class", don't have a CLUE what they're doing on the road....

7) LOTS of Chinese, Filipino, Korean, Italian, Jamaican, etc ("foreign") people -- so much so that I feel in the "minority" up here. In the States that wasn't the case. Probably also true in many major US cities. If you go most anywhere else in Canada outside the "Golden Horseshoe" or Vancouver and skin that is other than white, you will be very visibly in the minority. Wrong-o....have you actually BEEN to Toronto? How do you know all of these amazing facts? :-)

I live in Hamilton, just down the road. I don't spend much time in downtown Toronto, if that's the area you mean. Yeah, there's a lot of immigrants in Toronto (and Vancouver). Canada allows a bigger % of our population to immigrate here every year, and they almost all come to Toronto. Like I said, though, most of the rest of Canada is lily-white - don't take Toronto as representative of most of the country.

I have not found this to be the case....I read the Toronto Star, the Scarborough Mirror and the daily Metro --- and believe me they ARE quite liberal...

Try the Toronto Sun and the National Post (although it's getting less so all the time)

We live in Scarborough....down the road from y'all...I have read articles from the National Post on Free Republic (mostly opinion pieces by Mark Steyn and Christine Blatchford (sp?) and have found them to be VERY GOOD!!

Right now my wife and I are getting a complimentary 1-month subscription to the Toronto Star (which expires in one day)....I will make more of an attempt to access the National Post online. :-) Haven't yet read the Toronto Sun....will have to look for that online too...

10) Some fries served with vinegar (YUK!!!!!!!!). Only if you ask for it or put it on yourself. Many would argue that ketchup (or catsup) on fries is the true abomination. Not me --- ate mine with fries all my life...

Well, despite being called french fries, the french fry/chip as we eat it is really a British thing (as in fish'n'chips), and vinager is the common topping there.

I see.....that makes sense. :-)

[-YYZ-]

The problem in Toronto is that there are a LOT of Chinese drivers who, even after taking a "driving class", don't have a CLUE what they're doing on the road....

You want a really good laugh sometime, go out to the Asia Pacific Mall in Markham sometime and find a good place to watch the going-ons in the parking lot. It's a regular comedy routine watching these guys (and gals) manoeuvre around the parking lot and into parking spots.

FWIW, I don't believe Asians are inherently poor drivers, but in general immigrants who come here as adults and have never driven before in their homeland make lousy, indecisive drivers. I believe there's also some cultural issues with asians that make them very passive, unagressive and indecisive drivers.

[ConservativeStLouisGuy]

YYZ,

As a footnote to your reply (from awhile back)....I recently went to the Asia Pacific Mall (that you mentioned) and, yes, it WAS quite comical watching them(mostly the Chinese) pulling in and out, going to and fro and vying for the best parking lot....it is a nice mall too....we went on Labor Day -- and a LOT of the stores were open then too -- to make up for the day(s) they were closed during the Blackout...

- ConservativeStLouisGuy

[-YYZ-]

It's a great mall to go shopping for certain items, as you can find 3 or 4 shops all selling exactly the same items and compare prices and bargain with them. Really good selection of hobby shops (RC cars and such) in there. Very nice and clean and bright. I must get out there again sometime, but it's a bit of a haul from Hamilton just to go to a mall.