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To: DannyTN
You emphasise the baptism. I would emphasise and wash away your sins,

"Wash away your sins" placed next to "baptism" pretty clearly emphasizes that baptism is the act accomplishing the washing. It's more striking in the Greek, because the word translated "be baptized" can also be translated as "bathe" or "wash".

Don't set up some artificial opposition between one clause of Scripture and another. God's word is a unified whole, not a collection of bits and pieces.

there are so many verses that do just that, they emphasize the calling on His name, and leave baptism out all together when talking about salvation.

In context, John 3 is not one of those passages, though. It's very much about baptism. Baptism is mentioned before, baptism is mentioned afterwards, and Jesus specifically demands that one be "born again of water and the Holy Spirit". I don't know what he's talking about, if it's not baptism, especially given the baptismal context before and afterwards.

However, a broader question is why you seem to think there's some opposition between faith and baptism. There isn't. One leads to the other.

Can someone who is faithful be saved without being baptized in water? According to the Catholic Church, absolutely. The technical term for this is "baptism of desire," or "baptism of blood" (in the case of someone who is martyred for the faith before being baptized in water).

But that doesn't change the fact that baptism in water is the normative -- ordinary or usual -- way to confer the grace of justification. Why? Because God said so, in John 3, among other places.

Arguing that faith is more important than baptism is a lot like saying that love is more important than marriage. (If the people who call baptism "impotent ritual" were consistent, they would call marriage "impotent ritual" also.) No, love leads to marriage, marriage seals love in a sacred covenant. Faith leads to baptism, baptism seals faith in a sacred covenant.

180 posted on 07/24/2003 8:36:42 PM PDT by Campion
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To: Campion
It's more striking in the Greek

You mean they didn't speak Shakespearean English in the Holy Land?!? </sarcasm> ;-)

184 posted on 07/24/2003 8:39:53 PM PDT by B Knotts
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To: Campion
"In context, John 3 is not one of those passages, though. It's very much about baptism. Baptism is mentioned before, baptism is mentioned afterwards, and Jesus specifically demands that one be "born again of water and the Holy Spirit". I don't know what he's talking about, if it's not baptism, especially given the baptismal context before and afterwards."

Well it should be clear. Jesus explains it. Part of the problem here is you are misquote the scripture it says: Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit. You added an again before the water that is not there in scripture. John 3:5 ...Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. The water baptism is of the flesh, it's the natural birth from your mother. The born of the spirit is the spirit baptism, that comes through faith in Jesus. Any one who has the spirit baptism is born again and has eternal life. And that happens before water baptism occurs.

God's word is a unified whole, not a collection of bits and pieces.

Agreed, that's exactly why it should be obvious that water baptism is not a critical part of the salvation process.

you seem to think there's some opposition between faith and baptism. There isn't. One leads to the other.

I don't think there is any opposition between faith and baptism. And I agree one leads to the other. But baptism is an act of obedience and testimony. That's why Jesus Himself was baptized, not because He was going through a salvation experience. Technically baptism isn't part of salvation. It should naturally follow salvation as the first act of obedience. And the exceptions to that are pretty rare.

But if you are on the cross next to Jesus or you are on your death bed and you finally get the motivation to accept Jesus, you don't have to worry about the lack of a baptism ceremony damning you to hell. It won't.

Love leads to marriage, marriage seals love in a sacred covenant. Faith leads to baptism, baptism seals faith in a sacred covenant.

Bad example. Marriage seals in a sacred covenant. When it comes to salvation, it's faith that claims God's promise that seals in a sacred covenant, not baptism.

196 posted on 07/24/2003 8:56:03 PM PDT by DannyTN (Note left on my door by a pack of neighborhood dogs.)
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