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Judge Bork, baptized at 76
U.S. News & World Report ^
| 7/22/03
| Paul Bedard With David LaGesse
Posted on 07/24/2003 11:31:43 AM PDT by nickcarraway
click here to read article
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To: Thorondir
I was reading from my Bible..not from any-thing that happened 1300years after the Western Church split from the Eastern church, with the western church declaring itself as the ONLY BODY AS TO WHOM GOD GRANTED AUTHORITY ON EARTH!
Chewbacca was saying that it is the baptism of the heart and the empowering of the Holy Spirit on the inside of a man's heart with a subsequent change of behaviour that are the true marks of a man's Salvation. I dare say many Baptists as well as Catholics may not be saved for they may have substituted outer rituals for true inner life (In order not to have that inner life ruled by God...a pride thing!).
Are you familiar with the parable of the sower of the seed? The seed that fell on the good ground reproduced some 30,60, then 100 fold. Each one of those seeds produced a parent plant that in turn produced multiple other seeds. This was not just about individuals who were saved but also about the multiple GOD breathed institutions that would arise thru history to organize the spreading of the Gospel and to give solace and succour to the faithful OF WHICH THE WESTERN NOW CALLED ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH WAS TO BE ONE OF MANY!
THE CHURCH IS NOT ABOUT ONE VATICAN RULED BUREAUCRACY...but about about a tiny mustard seed that grew and grew...
Heaven resists the complications men would ascribe to her!
To: utahagen
How about churches that baptize in the name of Jesus Christ, rather than Father, Son, Holy Ghost? I don't mean Oneness Pentecostals...
To: nickcarraway
Interesting article ...
Catholicism Is The Answer (by Bud Macfarlane Jr.)
Extract:
The Conversion of Protestant Ministers to Catholicism. What started as a trickle with Scott Hahn in the 1980s is now a steady stream of hundreds of conversions. Many or most of our best preachers and apostolic leaders were once anti-Catholic Protestants.
63
posted on
07/24/2003 1:49:47 PM PDT
by
NYer
(Laudate Dominum)
To: Wallace T.
If so, does the Catholic Church not recognize the legitimacy of his prior baptism? >>>>>
I think they do. Maybe this was done as a ceremonious occasion and he received the other sacraments along with it: Eucharist and Confirmation or maybe he was never baptized, who knows.
64
posted on
07/24/2003 1:49:54 PM PDT
by
Coleus
(God is Pro Life and Straight and gave an innate predisposition for self-preservation and protection)
To: Incorrigible
Thanks for the ping
Welcome to our family Judge Bork!
He married a former nun and I thought he was already a practicing Catholic. Incidentally, two Jews in the media converted to Catholicism also: Dick Morris and Robert Novak.
65
posted on
07/24/2003 1:52:16 PM PDT
by
Coleus
(God is Pro Life and Straight and gave an innate predisposition for self-preservation and protection)
To: NYer
We have a few married priests with children in our diocese, they were once protestant (mainly Episcopal) ministers.
66
posted on
07/24/2003 1:53:07 PM PDT
by
Coleus
(God is Pro Life and Straight and gave an innate predisposition for self-preservation and protection)
To: DannyTN
The thief on the cross next to Jesus wasn't baptized, but was saved nevertheless. I wish my Christian brethren would give up on this "thief on the cross" argument. It is a horrible argument to make for these reasons:
1. Yes salvation is by faith in Jesus. But not that Jesus is or even that he is God. It is by faith in a very specific thing.
2. That thing is the gospel message (I Cor 15:1-4)
3. The gospel is that "Jesus died for our sins, was buried, and rose again"
4. Faith/Salvation in the church age/Christian era requires believe in those 3 things (death for my sins, burial, resurrection).
5. The thief on the cross did not believe any of those 3 parts of the gospel as none of them had even happened yet.
6. Yes the thief on the cross was saved by faith but the faith of the Old Testament Theology/era/dispensation. There was no baptism as part of the Old Testament (Jewish) salvation/theology. The bible says "Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness" (note - this was before his circumcision - Paul makes a huge point about this in the whole chapter of Romans 4).
7. Baptism is part of the New Testament/Christian/Church age theology and in EVERY single case in the bible was administered after faith/belief in the gospel. Also in every case in the Bible it was done immediately after belief (not weeks, months, etc. later - it is a travesty to make people go through a 13 week membership class before they can be baptised).
The thief on the cross has nothing to do with the baptism arguments/studies.
To: haole
Catholics do recognize Baptism by Desire-wanting Jesus into your life. I'm sorry, I thought that said "do not". Yes, when a person accepts Jesus and asks for his death to cover their sins, they are baptised in the Holy Spirt. It's that baptism that saves not the water baptism which is a sign of obedience.
68
posted on
07/24/2003 1:59:33 PM PDT
by
DannyTN
(Note left on my door by a pack of neighborhood dogs.)
To: k omalley
I know that baptism is a testimony of faith in Jesus Christ. But I do have one question:
Is baptism required for salvation? Or is salvation required for baptism?
69
posted on
07/24/2003 2:04:13 PM PDT
by
D Rider
To: LivingNet
"7. Baptism is part of the New Testament/Christian/Church age theology and in EVERY single case in the bible was administered after faith/belief in the gospel. Also in every case in the Bible it was done immediately after belief (not weeks, months, etc. later - it is a travesty to make people go through a 13 week membership class before they can be baptised)."It's still the faith that saves, that results in the spirit baptism. It's not the water baptism that saves, it's merely a sign of obedience.
And if you not my last post on this thread, I misread Haole's post, who in a sense had agreed with me.
70
posted on
07/24/2003 2:04:33 PM PDT
by
DannyTN
(Note left on my door by a pack of neighborhood dogs.)
To: Fred Mertz
Re: Bork - Better late than never!
71
posted on
07/24/2003 2:06:22 PM PDT
by
ELS
To: haole; Thorondir
I know what it says in the Bible. John the Baptist baptized those repentant ones with water. He said Christ would baptize with fire....so I the thief was........ baptized..with Christ's Holy spirit Fire...with his blood poured out for the complete remission(pay back to God) of the thief's sins. Had the thief survived, he might have been baptized with water, symbolizing the burial of the old man and the rising up of the new resurrected man, per the command of Chist and the early church.
This is why many sects use immersion...not only because the early Greek texts of scripture used the greek term baptizmo(or dunking, immersion, literally burial under water), but because of this emphasis of dying to the old sinful man and the rising up of the new resurrected man. Sprinkling and pouring is also recognized by these same sects because some who are frail or infirm couldn't handle the immersion.
Baptism is both a recognition and symbol of what our past was and what our future is going to be as believers. The cleansing of our sins was done by Jesus Christ's blood sacrifice alone! His resurrection seals the deal by THE demonstration of God's POWER OVER DEATH! By undergoing Baptism, you are telling all publically that you are following Christ's exhortation of laying down one's life, taking up one's cross and following him.
To: Thorondir
Apparently the Eastern church had some of the same thoughts as those who came 1500 years later..hence the first major schism.
To: D Rider
"Is baptism required for salvation? Or is salvation required for baptism? "There are two baptisms, baptism in the Spirit and baptism by water.
Baptism in the spirit is a result of salvation. It occurs when one accepts Jesus through prayer. Baptism by water is a testimony of faith and an act of obedience.
If one isn't willing to be baptised then you have to question if they are repentant. But it's the faith and the resulting baptism by the spirit that saves, not the water baptism.
74
posted on
07/24/2003 2:09:18 PM PDT
by
DannyTN
(Note left on my door by a pack of neighborhood dogs.)
To: nickcarraway
I'll be watching for a Peggy Noonan article on this story.
75
posted on
07/24/2003 2:09:55 PM PDT
by
Eva
To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; Caleb1411; drstevej
"If you get baptized at my age, all of your sins are forgiven. And that's very helpful." Golly, that's sad!
Dan
How Can I Know God?
76
posted on
07/24/2003 2:11:47 PM PDT
by
BibChr
("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
To: DannyTN
It's that baptism that saves not the water baptism which is a sign of obedience. Then why does 1 Peter 3:21 say flatly that water baptism saves? Not apart from faith, of course -- nobody believes that, including Catholics -- but integral to faith.
There are a lot of personal theological opinions on this thread that are not consistent with Scripture.
77
posted on
07/24/2003 2:18:29 PM PDT
by
Campion
To: DannyTN
There are two baptisms, baptism in the Spirit and baptism by water.Baptism in the spirit is a result of salvation. It occurs when one accepts Jesus through prayer. Baptism by water is a testimony of faith and an act of obedience.
Except that the Bible says its a good deal more than that.
'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'--Acts 22:16
Why are people complaining that Judge Bork says of baptism exactly what Ananias, a man sent by God to convert Paul (!!) said of baptism -- that it washes away sins?
As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, "Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?"--Acts 8:36
Philip didn't correct the eunuch's (supposed) theological error. He baptized him. With water. The wet kind.
78
posted on
07/24/2003 2:25:09 PM PDT
by
Campion
To: BibChr
Golly, that's sad! Golly, that's unBiblical!
79
posted on
07/24/2003 2:26:49 PM PDT
by
Campion
To: Campion
Look at the whole scripture in context not just a little verse lifted out of it. If water Baptism saved then the repentant thief on the cross could not have been saved. The accepted process back then was to acknowledge Christm ask for his forgiveness for your sins, ask him in to your life and then get water baptzed. Acts 8:26 thru 39 describes such a conversion model. Philip is preaching to a Ethiopian Eunuch. The Ethiopian askes him what "hinders" him to be baptized. Philip replies "If you believe with all your heart, you may." The eunuch answered and said "I believe that Jesus Christ is the SON OF GOD" Then Philip Baptized the Eunuch.
See...so easy a child could understand it, hence the complicated arguements from the "ADULTS"...(we love to choak on gnats and swallow camels...don't we...ADULTS?!)
Heaven resists the complexities that men ascribe to her!
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