Judge Bork, baptized at 76

U.S. News & World Report ^ | 7/22/03 | Paul Bedard With David LaGesse

[my_pointy_head_is_sharp]

I'm not here denigrating anyone's religion, as you are. You Protestant know-it-alls think that everyone who doesn't believe exactly the way you believe, is going to hell, is not saved, etc. You are drowning in legalese. You are a Pharisee.

[Snuffington]

I will pray for his conversion and salvation.

Dan, you are a class act. That's why when you even get into heated arguments opposed to the Catholic Church, I don't hold a grudge. You're sincere in your adherence to God, and I only wish more people could say the same.

[sneakers]

Joyful welcome to Judge Bork!

[DannyTN]

"It's about obedience! "

No, it's about faith. Was Abraham obedient when he struck the rock? No. Did he lose his salvation? No. Was David obedient when he committed adultery and murder? No. Did he lose his salvation? No.

Faith in God leads to love for God. Love for God leads to obedience. In that order.

[B Knotts]

"The church of me and the guy down the street (and I'm not so sure about him)."

[TradicalRC]

Faith alone? What about Grace?

[narses]

Yeah, poor man. I hope he makes the same journey home that Judge Bork and Rev. Hahn made.

[my_pointy_head_is_sharp]

What's classy about calling Catholics an evil sect?

[B Knotts]

Let's pray for him.

[DannyTN]

"Faith alone? What about Grace? "

Grace through faith.

[Campion]

Part of the problem here is you are misquote the scripture

Well, I did, but not by very much. Jesus says in 3:3 that one must be "born again" or "born from above" (the Greek is ambiguous). Nicodemus, confused, asks whether one can enter a second time into his mothers' womb and be born. Jesus then says (3:5), "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God".

The idea that Jesus is giving a gynecology lesson here is preposterous, and is flatly contradicted just by the language of the verse. He doesn't say "a man must be born of his mother, and then born a second time of the Spirit". "Of water and the Spirit" is appositive to "born". Jesus is talking about one birth, which is "of water and the Spirit".

Given the context of baptism in John 1:24-34 and again in 3:22-23, to write baptism out of John 3:5 in favor of gynecology is absurd.

Agreed, that's exactly why it should be obvious that water baptism is not a critical part of the salvation process.

Everything God commands is absolutely critical.

Bad example. Marriage seals in a sacred covenant. When it comes to salvation, it's faith that claims God's promise that seals in a sacred covenant, not baptism.

You aren't responding to the analogy, Danny, just denying that it's applicable. I think it's absolutely applicable. If baptism is empty ritual, marriage is equally empty.

[Tanstaafl]

Welcome home judge Bork!

[Ann Archy]

You said.....................The real question is whether Bork had has feet washed by John Ashcroft? What would Christ say about Ashcroft? I doubt it would be good. Suntsu

Are you insane or just inane???

[RnMomof7]

Bad example. Marriage seals in a sacred covenant. When it comes to salvation, it's faith that claims God's promise that seals in a sacred covenant, not baptism.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

[Palladin]

I have seen and heard Father McCloskey on EWTN. He is a brilliant man, but very humble, unassuming, and softspoken. I believe he could even convert the bigots here on FR--he's that persuasive!

He is this generation's Fulton J. Sheen.

[Campion]

Was Abraham obedient when he struck the rock? No. Did he lose his salvation? No. Was David obedient when he committed adultery and murder? No. Did he lose his salvation? No.

Moses struck the rock, not Abraham. And both Moses and David repented of their sins before they died, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Faith in God leads to love for God. Love for God leads to obedience. In that order.

So?

[Ann Archy]

It's a physical thing...as humans, God knows we need physical things and ritals and signs. They ARE significant....kind of like a wedding ceremony done by a pastor or preacher.

It's a reminder to us that the Blood of the Lamb WASHED us from our sins....we celebrate the shedding of the Blood of the Lamb...do you??

[B-Chan]

...[S]ola scriptura... is not a silly slogan. It's what most Protestant churches ostensibly rely upon in testing the accuracy of church dogma.

Which passage of Scripture do they use to test the accuracy of the dogma of sola scriptura?

[american colleen]

I don't disagree with you at all. Faith does lead to obedience. That is why the phrase "faith alone" does not exist in the Bible. Baptism is what he commanded, in very plain words.

[Campion]

Interesting verse. Here it is in a more modern translation (NASB):

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise

So, in the early church, what happened to someone "after listening to the message of truth," and after they had "also believed"?

Yep. They got wet.