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To: justshutupandtakeit
Nationalists supported a federal Union.

Only because their proposals for eliminating and consolidating the States were quickly struck down. Your use of the word "nationalist" has varied from post to post, and no doubt you're engaging in some word play here to set up some more twisting, which is about all you ever do. Chubby Checker will sue you yet.

Madison described the government as BOTH federal and National and that was Hamilton's view as well.

As far as Madison is concerned, the "national" aspect ONLY referred to the very few limited powers granted under the Constitution to the Federal governent, the States' agent, for dealing specifically with affairs that concerned them all as a group. All the other powers, dealing with the day to day life of the State's citizens, which were MANY, were retained by the States, who were sovereign and superior to the national government in regards to those powers. That was Hamilton's view as well. Not his origninal desire, but his admission of what type of government was being created. I have already provided you with his quotes describing this.

Why would you believe that a nationalist could not be a federalist when it was obvious that the most nationalist of the founders were the Federalists?

Ah, there's your twisting, and the reason for your earlier word-play. The Federalists were NOT the most "nationalist" of the Founders. The "consolidationists" also called "nationalists" were. As has already been pointed out more times than I can remember, they advocated the elimination of the States and their consolidation into a single nation. The Federalists were minimalists in terms of "nationalism" (as you are currently using the term, which as I have already mentioned, has varied from post to post. At least you're not using it as a synonym for abolitionism anymore).

759 posted on 09/03/2003 6:58:42 PM PDT by thatdewd
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To: thatdewd
Once again you cannot distinguish between a negoitiating stance and a belief. Hamilton never seriously advocated getting rid of states, he well understood their importance as administrative units in a federal Union.

Madison NEVER considered the federal Union as "the States' agent" and carefully constructed the constitution to prevent that from ever happening. That is why state legislatures were not allowed to ratify the Constitution which WAS/IS the agent of the American People. While the powers granted the Union are limited they are still vast and the constitution was designed to limit the powers of the STATES primarily by increasing the powers of the federal government. WHY ELSE WOULD THE ANTIS OPPOSE IT?

Inability to understand negoitiating and compromising prevents you from understanding what happened at the convention. Hopefully, you won't have to negoitiate anything with one knowledgeable in such things or you will be left standing saying "How did I lose my pants?"
762 posted on 09/04/2003 6:49:35 AM PDT by justshutupandtakeit (America's Enemies foreign and domestic agree. Bush must be destroyed.)
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