United States hemorrhaging core tech jobs: Trend could imperil the American programmer

San Mateo County Times ^ | Sunday, July 20, 2003 | Rachel Konrad

[ItisaReligionofPeace]

No one "deserves" anything. People earn what the market will pay.

[ItisaReligionofPeace]

BTW, it has nothing to do with who is "dumber". It has to do with who has marketable skills that are in demand.

[ItisaReligionofPeace]

Why is that familiar? He didn't actually say "Nuts".

[ItisaReligionofPeace]

That's funny, I can't think of another time in our history that I'd rather be living.

[neutrino]

Your post #16: should be required reading for all!

The jobs issue could well cost us the White House...and the House. Maybe even the Senate.

[ninenot]

Your recollection is correct. DASD, a very successful Milwaukee firm, was purchased by Cap Gemini in the early '80's.

Following that purchase, two of the principals of DASD (original or second-gen shareholders) started up CPU, another extremely successful IS consulting firm.

By 1998, CPU had been sold to a Detroit(?) based firm and now employs about 10% of its 1990 numbers. At that time, the Company had over 600 programmers in the field in Wisconsin.

[Walkin Man]

A moderate Democrate who addresses the issue of outsoursing, h1b, and l1 visas could walk away with the 2004 election.

I think if ANY demorat, including Hillary, addresses these issues, GW is going to go the way of his father. But then again, the demorats are bought and sold to the same multi-national corps as the Repub's, so there isn't much to worry about. Just keep watching the USA export all of our jobs.

[Pearls Before Swine]

All these negative Nellies are missing the major point -- America didn't become the world technology leader by being a source of cheap labor like India and China are doing.

It wasn't the same America, either. Now, if you are on the leading edge, your rewards are heavily blunted by the taxes you pay to carry the now unemployable.

The outsourcing problem is to some degree analagous to the illegal migrant worker problem in this sense: The savings to the companies are illusory--companies save, but by shifting costs to society at large. Its a lot like the tragedy of the commons.

You can't easily retrain and re-employ a moderately skilled 50ish worker whose employment has gone offshore for a long and new career; and the dislocations in his life -- sell the house, long term unemployment, etc -- are picked up by the rest of us.

There are examples which mask the basic argument, such as when industries truly become obsolete or require very little skill and initiative--like buggy whips. That is only partially the case with programming. It is also interesting the liberal policy of the US universities in welcoming foreigners in the name of diversity and the spirit of education hastens this sort of reckoning.

Over time, competition means everyone has to work smarter to do well. However, it isn't in the common interest to hasten international competition when you consider the overall costs.

[ninenot]

We need to look at where we have strategic advantage -- whether it's resources or skills," Pryor said. "It frees up people and dollars to do much more value-added strategic things for clients."

Such as converting client systems to PeopleSoft??

Gee: that's a value-added-strategic-planning road to INDICTMENT for E&Y--now suspected of being on the take from PeopleSoft for pushing those systems to clients who simply did not need them.

Yup, value-added theft, fraud, and collusion.

[EGPWS]

Why is that familiar? He didn't actually say "Nuts".

General McAulffie would dispute that statement.

[Nick Danger]

Such as converting client systems to PeopleSoft??

I didn't hear about this. Are you telling me these guys were peddling somebody's wares while taking the client's money to act as an 'independent' consultant? Did they caught at that?

[oceanview]

The Dems don't want to stop it, and will not even propose that. They gain by promising more programs and services to the displaced workers: unemployment extensions, government health care, more government jobs, etc. That will work, since desperate people who were once middle class and find the rug pulled out from under them with no place to go except waiting tables or Home Depot, need these programs. They will vote Dem, and they won't care a hoot about moral or national security issues, or anything except what they need to survive economically.

All these freepers who trash talk this issue beware, the one way ticket to a permanent Democratic majority in the US is the destruction of the private sector middle class. Its a slow process, but it is happening.

[ninenot]

That $65 is wages *and* benefits

FYI (and I spent several years in the IT consulting biz...)

In Milwaukee, Madison, Green Bay, the average salary is now around $60K, or about $30.00/hour. Another $15./hour is bennies; the balance is the arbitrage given to the contracting house.

It may be the case that in other parts of the country the salary is up to $35 or $40./hour, in which case your estimate of 'total' (fully-loaded) compensation is about accurate.

But I suspect that the $65./number includes the contracting firm's take...

[ninenot]

I just performed a retained search for an Ops Dir--one of the preferred skills was an understanding of cut/sew business.

We mailed inquiry letters to over 250 individuals regarding the opportunity. Of the 8 letters mailed to Mo. cut/sew type firms, 6 were returned, "addressee unknown/no forwarding address.)

Talk about shrink!! Hot water couldn't do it better than "free trade."

[EGPWS]

your rewards are heavily blunted by the taxes you pay to carry the now unemployable.

Yes this is true, when a majority promotes the re-election of people who endeavor to make government your means of well being. Of course the visionary thinkers know better than to think this can be maintained for more than a short period of time.

[iconoclast]

Got a mouse in your pocket? You really don't get it.

Your concern with the economy as it relates to you is understandable.

I'm retired, son. I'm concerned about my country and my children, grandchildren.

What are your concerns beyond electing the next globalist?

[ninenot]

I saw an article on the topic about 3-4 weeks ago. It stuck in my mind because a very large Gummint entity in this area uses PeopleSoft and the consultant is E&Y.

Google, maybe? I think it's in the "investigation" stage; if you have WSJournal online search, they reference it, I am sure...

[EGPWS]

Hot water couldn't do it better than "free trade."

So your against free trade? What are you for then?

[EGPWS]

What are your concerns beyond electing the next globalist?

Whom are you refering to as a globalist that I'm so inclined to elect?

[iconoclast]

So your against free trade?

Where does free trade exist?

I'd say nowhere, but venture to say the CLOSEST you can come will be Uncle Sucker and some third world countries.