Mel Gibson Alters Script at Rabbi's Request

I think there is very little doubt that Jesus was tried, convicted and executed exclusively by the Romans; and the notion that a Roman governor publicly proclaimed him innocent, washed his hands, and all that, and then proceeded with the execution, is patent nonsense.

Not true. Early Jewish sources, such as the Talmud, attest to the fact that the priestly class of Jesus' time wanted Him dead. In fact, the Talmud doesn't mention the Romans at all; they give full credit to the priests for hanging Yesu"(sorry, don't have the exact quotes in front of me, but they're readily available on the Internet and at any library).

P.S. I'm not saying that the Romans weren't the ones who executed Jesus, simply stating the fact that the Talmud seems not to be shy in saying that the High Priests were instrumental in His death.

You aren't condenmned for the things you didn't do, you are condemned for the things you do. Humans aren't even held responsible for their own sin until the "age of accoutability" according to scripture, which is that age that a person can be said to be knowledgeable regarding right and wrong, and for some that may certainly be flexible as to age and mentality. Generally, around the age of 12 is what was considered the age of accountability.

Of course it is natural to find Christianity repellant! The Bible says that the gospel is repellant to the natural man, as that which is spiritual cuts across that which is flesh. I don't like being called evil either, but that is what I am at the core of my-self. Even at my best, I some-times may think thoughts that would cause angels to lose their light should they think them. I am a sinner, stated in the same way that an Alcohaulic declares he is an alcohaulic. One isn't truly an authentic Alcohaulic until one states that he is one, then he starts on the road to sobriety.

All men are sinners, but a man can not come to grips with his failures until a man truly admits that he is a SINNER. Once he does so, and applies for help from the only "Higher Power", he then starts on the road to becoming "one of the Sons of God".

Look an analogy would be like being born with palsy. I can be angry with-it, I can blame others for my affliction, or I can apply for therapy to correct my walk and to make me a more fuctional human being.

Christianity says we are born with a flaw that causes us to be sin-ful.("By man(Adam) came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead(Christ)) That is the concept of original sin. It is a condition that pre-disposes us to hate our fellow men, to do evil, to steal, cheat, have perverted lustful thoughts, kick the neighbors' cats, pick our noses...(sorry bad humor...probably also a sin).

Even the most disciplined religious men, became that way after "many mistakes". We can be offended at such a concept of Original Sin, and even try to deny the reality of of it, but even you, Elliot, cannot deny that you have done some wrong things or hurt some people...even if you personally deny a Judeo-Christian ethic in your thinking. You might be a nice person for the greater part.

What Christ has done was to provide a remedy for the punishment that we humans deserve for our sin. He has also promised power for those who would walk his way,"to become the sons of God" Christianity is the therapy for our bad behaviour , while providing the grace necessary to make us acceptable to God while the Spirit is working out God's perfection in our inner instincts, by reworking our core personalities from the inside out.

Just like temporal therapy, it requires a certain attentativeness and two way co-operation to make it work. We walk by "faith", in repentance, knowing that should we " sin Christ is faithful and able to forgive our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness". It is not by "works", indeed in one sense, the less hard one tries to "work at BEING A CHRISTIAN", the easier it is being Christian". The focus is the important thing...by fixing our eyes squarely on Christ, one can indeed "leave the boat and walk on water"!

I AM PRO-MEL GIBSON!

Not true. Early Jewish sources, such as the Talmud, attest to the fact that the priestly class of Jesus' time wanted Him dead. In fact, the Talmud doesn't mention the Romans at all; they give full credit to the priests for hanging Yesu"(sorry, don't have the exact quotes in front of me, but they're readily available on the Internet and at any library).

The Talmud does describe the execution (by stoning, not crucifixion) of a Jewish heretic named Yeshu, but it is not talking about Jesus of Nazareth; the Talmudic story describes an event that took place during the reign of "King Yannai" [Alexander Jannai], a Jewish king of the Maccabean dynasty, who reigned from 105 B.C.E. to 75 B.C.E., long before the time of Jesus of Nazareth.

In Jannai's time, Judea was independent and the Sanhedrin could indeed sentence people to death; in Roman times, only the Roman governor could sentence someone to death. Josephus's Antiquities, the earliest history to mention Jesus outside the New Testament, says that of Jesus that "Pilate sentenced him to be crucified."

Humans aren't even held responsible for their own sin until the "age of accoutability" according to scripture, which is that age that a person can be said to be knowledgeable regarding right and wrong, and for some that may certainly be flexible as to age and mentality. Generally, around the age of 12 is what was considered the age of accountability.

What scripture?

Deuteronomy 1:39 and Isaiah 7:16 give support to the idea that there is a time in a person's life where they do not fully comprehend the knowledge of good and evil and that God won't hold them fully responsible until they reach that point. God also "winked" at the pagan nations who worshipped false Gods, until Christ came, and God certainly knew who his children were in those pagan nations.

Of course the Deuteronomy passage refers to to the children of Israel aged 19 and below who would survive the extra 40 years of wandering before Israel would be allowed to cross the Jordan into Canaan. The Jews hold that the age of 12 was this accountability age. Jesus Christ at AGE 12 stated to his parents..."I must be about my father's business". He had reached a point that it was time to take up a spiritual mantle, that his childhood had ended.

I got saved at age 11 because I knew I was a sinner and was going to hell. I've had deeper experiences since then, the more I've recognized my cuplability and there=fore my utter dependence on God.

If you are looking for a magical phrase...AGE OF ACCOUNTABILITY..well you have a point. It isn't in the Bible even though the concept can be infered in various places in the Bible. I don't think that the age of accountability negates the need for all humans to know Christ, just rather it points out that only God can judge the heart, and that God does make some exceptions for those youngsters who "dont get that good and evil thing just yet"... are they sinners...you bet ya! Will God show "mercy on whom he will", you bet ya!

Then again, THE HOLY TRINITY isn't the bible either. Are you prepared to question its existence as well?

The Holy Trinity is accepted by all Orthodox Chistians the age of accountability is not. Just felt it took away from the rest of your presentation needlessly.

The Talmud does describe the execution (by stoning, not crucifixion) of a Jewish heretic named Yeshu, but it is not talking about Jesus of Nazareth

No, there are clear references to Jesus of Nazareth in the Talmud. Jewish scholars such as Joseph Klausner have pointed them out. There is mention of another "Yeshu" who was "hanged on the Passover", and they mention his Disciples(Hebrew names for the most prominent of them). The other Yeshu who was stoned is a distinct and different person.

Well I accept that criticism. When and what age or level God holds us resposible for before we are REALLY held to an account is an arguable point and probably a little different for each person as God himself would be the arbiter.
The concept probably didn't need to be mentioned, but on the other hand it flies in the face of just plain common sense, in light of what we know about the mercy of God that He would send a ten year old to hell, if he died. (Or that he might have forgiven an adulterous and murderous King David).

It's all about Mercy...God really is trying to show us more simple truths and simple mercies...we humans tend to gobbledy gook those truths up, so Christianity looks more formidably complicated than it has to be! Seek his heart!

Here is the famous Josephus passage about Jesus. The capitalized portions are considered later interpolations(the uncapitalized portions have been found preserved in a very ancient Arabic manuscript, from before a time when over zealous Christians could have tinkered with it):

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man IF IT BE LAWFUL TO CALL HIM A MAN, for he was a doer of wonders, A TEACHER OF SUCH MEN AS RECEIVE THE TRUTH WITH PLEASURE. He drew many after him BOTH OF THE JEWS AND THE GENTILES. HE WAS THE CHRIST. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, FOR HE APPEARED TO THEM ALIVE AGAIN THE THIRD DAY, AS THE DIVINE PROPHETS HAD FORETOLD THESE AND THEN THOUSAND OTHER WONDERFUL THINGS ABOUT HIM, and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day (Antiquities 18:63-64).

Notice this portion from the ancient manuscript that is not capitalized:

When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross

in light of what we know about the mercy of God that He would send a ten year old to hell, if he died. (Or that he might have forgiven an adulterous and murderous King David).

Two thoughts

1) why would you say he was arbitrarily sending a 10 year old to hell. You presume the ten year old is going to hell because he has done nothing to earn Heaven.Where is grace in that?

2) What we call justice is often what man thinks of as justice not God's concept.

I wasn't thinking of God's Justice, I was thinking of his Mercy....We all have incurred his Justice...but what ever could we have done to gain his mercy....NOTHING!

Reference please? I don't doubt that there were some of the "common folks" there but a good number?

Please see Luke 20:19

And the chief priests and the scribes the same hour sought to lay hands on Him; and they feared the people: for they perceived that he had spoken this parable against them.

And Luke 22:2

And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill Him; for they feared the people.

Sorry, the blame here if there is blame to be assigned is clearly on the chief priests, the elders, the teachers of the law and the Sanhedrin.

They had reasons for their actions but that is an arguement for another time. The point is that the Jews collectively were not blamed in scripture and it is recorded that many morned for Him.

Reference please? I don't doubt that there were some of the "common folks" there but a good number?

Mark 15:8-11 -- "Then the multitude, crying aloud, began to ask him to do just as he had always done for them. But Pilate answered them, saying, 'Do you want me to release to you the King of the Jews?' For he knew that the chief priests had handed Him over because of envy. But the chief priests stirred up the crowd, so that he should rather release Barabbas to them."

They were clearly manipulated by the chief priests, but there were a lot of folks there. Probably some of the same ones who were throwing down palm branches and crying 'hosanna' when Jesus entered the city a few days before. Sheeple, in other words.

Peter in Acts 4 and Stephen in Acts 7 expressly blame the chief priests, scribes, etc for crucifying Christ, but don't overlook Acts 2:

v. 23 "Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death"

v. 36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

In Acts 2, Peter is not talking to the teachers of the law, he is talking to the people in Jerusalem. Certainly some of them were followers of Christ all along, and some of them had no interest one way or the other, but enough were involved in His death that Peter felt justified in telling the crowd, "you crucified Jesus."

Oh, how did you guess? (embarrassed!)