A Family Get-Together of Historic Proportions (Thomas Jefferson & Sally Hemings?)

NY Times ^ | July 14, 2003 | JAMES DAO

[nutmeg]

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The former President disembarks from his airplane after a trip back to Arkansas. Although the hoopla is less now that he is out of office, Clinton still occasionally finds himself greeted by military personnel. This is one such occasion.

He climbs down the stairs, carrying two huge pigs, one under each arm. He gets to the bottom, and nods his head in return to the soldier's salute. "Son, what do you think about these?" he says. "Nice pigs, SIR!" comes the reply. Clinton gets mildly miffed and lectures, "I'll have you know these aren't just pigs but the finest of Arkansas Razorbacks. Top notch. I got one for Hillary, and one for Chelsea. What do you think about that?"

"Nice trade, SIR!

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[Ravenstar]

This article is spinning from word one. It shows that a Jefferson relative fathered the child and more than likely it was NOT Thomas Jefferson. The left continues to spin but then of course you must consider the normally lying source -- NY Times.

Ravenstar

[crazykatz]

The DNA evidence is not conclusive... therefore...IT IS NOT CONCLUSIVE.

To say it is conclusive is ignorant and arrogant .

The facts do not support the blacks claims and so, they will just have to continue to dream of being decendants of Thomas Jefferson... instead of being descendants of his brother Randolph... who was KNOWN to have sired NUMEROUS children outside marriage.

[crazykatz]

BTTT

[presidio9]

Shocked! I am shocked to hear that you don't trust the veracity of an article published by the New York Times.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/945795/posts

[davisfh]

"...instead of being descendants of his brother Randolph... who was KNOWN to have sired NUMEROUS children outside marriage."

What about George?

[crazykatz]

George was MOST LIKELY sterile after suffering and almost dying from a high fever as a very young man. He alluded to his illness in some of his writings. He seemed to have had an understanding of the disease's "severe and sad" consequences.

To a man in the 18th century, it was considered a "sad" thing not to have sired offspring to inherit all of your property and to have no male to continue YOUR NAME and LINEAGE.

My husband and I consider George Washington to be a hero and a true gentleman in the 18th century sense of the word. My husband and I have been Revolutionary re-enactors for over 25 years and have done research on all aspects of the period.

My husband has extensively researched the Washington Papers for years. My husband and others have concluded that George Washington was not a careless, lewd or frivilous man.

He insisted on civility in ALL matters.

He was not fond of the continuation of slavery and left in his Will, a provision for funds to be spent, after Martha's death, that would be used to set their slaves free and provide funds by which the former slaves could start new and free lives.

I believe that a man who would spend so much money to provide for his former slaves, in a time when that is virtually unheard of, to do so, was NOT a man who take advantage of their circumstances as slaves and abuse his position of power. I believe he respected women and children and would NOT have injured them in any way.

Thomas Jefferson's slaves were sold after his death.

[crazykatz]

You mean the new yuk slimes?

[cyborg]

Julia Westerinen of Staten Island, who organized the reunion, said she had thought for years that she was related to Jefferson's white uncle — until scholars discovered that she was a descendant of Eston Hemings. She now identifies herself as black on census forms.

* Sally Hemmings was half black and half white, that would make Easton a quadroon, one fourth black. I'm half Italian and my mother is spanish, black, indian, dutch, french...
I do not identify myself as anything because I don't want racial categories anyway. So there. What is her point? That she has a 1/16 or less amount of black blood or because she was somehow related to Thomas Jefferson?

[mhking]

Black conservative ping

If you want on (or off) of my black conservative ping list, please let me know via FREEPmail. (And no, you don't have to be black to be on the list!)

Extra warning: this is a high-volume ping list.

[presidio9]

This not an attack on Washington, but just something I've always wanted to know: Did he have a gambling problem?


Oh, and did he get down with Betsy Ross or not?

[cyborg]

"The reason we don't think Jefferson did this is that his reputation meant everything to him, and he would not have risked it on a young slave woman," said Nathaniel Abeles, president of the Monticello Association. "He had everything to lose and nothing to gain, especially when there were plenty of other available women at that time."

* Sally Hemmings was no slouchy oprah winfrey look alike. She was a mulatto of high caliber extraction and she was Jefferson's wife's half sister. She probably LOOKED like her too. If that's true, that respectable men had much to lose by having a slave wife then that's a lot of respect lost IMHO.

Makes me wonder why interracial marriage was illegal anyway?

[connectthedots]

I could never understand fixations with geneology. Seems people are trying to make themselves out to something better than what are based on their family tree.

[crazykatz]

bttt

[crazykatz]

No he did not have a gambling problem and according to some of his papers he considered it a severe vice which could bring otherwise good people into destitute conditions and ruin a good family name. Washington was not a man to leave much to chance... ever. Notice how he conducted the war itself. As much planning as possible. He ran his farm and business' the same way.

Betsy Ross was a proper lady and married with numerous children, as I read in one book. Did you know there is some doubt as to her ever sewing a flag for ANYBODY?

[Sabertooth]

Nearly five years after DNA testing provided compelling — some argue overwhelming — evidence that Jefferson fathered at least one child with a young slave named Sally Hemings, about 150 of her family's descendants gathered this weekend for their first reunion on the grounds of Jefferson's hilltop plantation, Monticello.

Too bad the scientific evidence doesn't actually prove that Thomas Jefferson sired any children by Sally Hemmings.

Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings

An article in the November 5, 1998, edition of Nature provides DNA evidence that Thomas Jefferson or some other male Jefferson such as Randolph, the brother of Thomas, could have been the father of one of the sons of Sally Hemings, who was a slave at Jefferson's Monticello. The technique relies on the fact that the human Y-chromosome is handed down directly from father to son and that all paternally related males will have the same Y-chromosome. Although Thomas Jefferson did not have any sons who survived to produce children, his father's brother, Field Jefferson, did have sons and it has been possible to locate 5 descendants of Field Jefferson who are in a direct male-line of descent. Thus, these individuals (descendants of Field Jefferson) should have the same Y-chromosome DNA as the Y-chromosome DNA of Thomas Jefferson and any male-line descendant of his.
The male-line descendants of two of Sally Hemmings sons were located and their Y-chromosome DNA was examined for comparison to the Y-chromosome DNA of Field Jefferson's descendants. The DNA from the five male-line descendants of Thomas Woodson, oldest son of Sally Hemings, did not match the Jefferson DNA. In fact, one of Woodson's descendants did not match well with the other four. However, the DNA from the one descendant of Eston Hemings, youngest son of Sally Hemings, did match the Jefferson DNA.
This lends credence to the supposition that Thomas Jefferson may have been the father of Eston Hemings. However, historian Williard S. Randall, notes, "There were 25 men within 20 miles of Monticello who were all Jeffersons and had the same Y chromosome. And 23 of them were younger than Jefferson, who was 65 years old when Eston was conceived." Randall, wrote a 1993 biography of Jefferson, titled, Thomas Jefferson: A Life. More detailed information is available. Three different authors provide some perspective on Jefferson and Hemings in The Nation. Finally, the The Jefferson-Hemings Scholars Commission concluded that Randolph Jefferson, Thomas' brother, was more likely to have fathered Eston Hemings.

Other Sites of Interest

• Web resources on the Hemings Controversy (Monticello)
• The Jefferson/Hemings DNA Story (Jefferson Family Historian)
• The Jefferson-Hemings Scholars Commission (April 12, 2001)
• Summary of above by Robert F. Turner

This document maintained by Robert J. Huskey Last updated on February 25, 2003.

LINK

There's more...

Y Chromosome DNA Data on Jefferson and Hemings

Defining the Possible Link Between Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings:
Lineages and DNA Markers

In order to answer the question of whether or not Thomas Jefferson could have been the father of any of Sally Hemings' sons it is necessary to compare the Y-chromosome DNA from the living male-line descendants of Jefferson and Hemmings. Is has been possible to locate male-line descendants of two of Sally Hemings' sons, Thomas Woodson (the oldest) and Eston Hemings the (youngest), but not Madison Hemings whose male-line descendants did not survive the Civil War. Shown in the figure to the right is the lineage of the one male-line descendant (H21) of Eston Hemmings and the five male-line descendants (W55, W56, W69, W70, and W61) of Thomas Woodson whose DNA was analyzed as part of the study.
Furthermore, Thomas Jefferson did not have a son survive to reproduce so it was necessary to locate the male-line descendants of Thomas Jefferson's paternal uncle, Field Jefferson. Five such descendants (J41, J42, J47, J49, and J50) were located and their DNA was analyzed.
It was also possible to locate three male-line descendants (C27, C29, and C31) of Samuel and Peter Carr -- the sons of Thomas Jefferson's sister -- whom some consider as the possible fathers of Sally Hemings' children.
In the table below are the results of an examination of the Y-chromosome DNA of the 14 male-line descendants described above. Where an individual differs from the other members of his cohort, the allele difference is shown in bold face. The five descendants of Field Jefferson (and proxies for Thomas Jefferson) have identical Y-chromosome DNA alleles except for one microsatellite DNA from J50. This difference is most reasonably accounted for by assuming that a mutation occured.
The lone descendant of Eston Hemings has the same set of Y-chromosome DNA alleles as the descendants of Field Jefferson. This supports the claim that Thomas Jefferson could have been the father of Eston Hemings although it does not prove it since the father could have been any male who had the same Y-chromosome as Thomas Jefferson and was in the immediate vicinity of Sally Hemings nine months before the birth of Eston Hemings. In fact, historical evidence implicates Randolph Jefferson, Thomas' brother, as the more likely father of Eston Hemings. The Carr descendants have similar DNA among themselves but are clearly different from either the Jefferson or Hemings descendants.
Four of the descendants of Thomas Woodson are quite similar among themselves but different from Jefferson and Hemings although they do have similarities to the descendants of the Carr line. One of the Woodson descendants is quite different from all of the other individuals which suggests that one of the genetic ancestors was not in the direct line from Thomas Woodson.

	Family	Pedigree Member	Bi Allelic Markers	Microsatellite STR	Mini Satellite MSY1
	Jefferson	J41	0000001	15,12,4,11,3,9,11,10,15,13,7	(3)5, (1)14, (3)32, (4)16
J42		0000001	15,12,4,11,3,9,11,10,15,13,7	(3)5, (1)14, (3)32, (4)16
J47		0000001	15,12,4,11,3,9,11,10,15,13,7	(3)5, (1)14, (3)32, (4)16
		J49	0000001	15,12,4,11,3,9,11,10,15,13,7	(3)5, (1)14, (3)32, (4)16
J50		0000001	15,12,4,11,3,9,11,10,16,13,7	(3)5, (1)14, (3)32, (4)16
	Hemings	H21	0000001	15,12,4,11,3,9,11,10,15,13,7	(3)5, (1)14, (3)32, (4)16
Carr	C27	0000011	14,12,5,12,3,10,11,10,13,13,7	(1)17, (3)36, (4)21
	C29	0000011	14,12,5,11,3,10,11,10,13,13,7	(1)17, (3)37, (4)21
	C31	0000011	14,12,5,12,3,10,11,10,13,13,7	(1)17, (3)36, (4)21
Woodson	W55	0000011	14,12,5,11,3,10,11,13,13,13,7	(1)16, (3)27, (4)21
	W56	0000011	14,12,5,11,3,10,11,13,13,13,7	(1)16, (3)27, (4)21
	W69	0000011	14,12,5,11,3,10,11,13,13,13,7	(1)16, (3)27, (4)21
	W70	1110001	17,12,6,11,3,11,8,10,11,14,6	(0)1, (3a)3, (1a)11, (3a)30, (4a)14, (4)2
	W61	0000011	14,12,5,11,3,10,11,13,13,13,7	(1)16, (3)28, (4)20

Other Sites of Interest

• Web resources on the Hemings Controversy (Monticello)
• The Jefferson/Hemings DNA Story (Jefferson Family Historian)

This document maintained by Robert J. Huskey Last updated on February 25, 2003.

LINK

[Sabertooth]

See #18

[presidio9]

Really? I'm glad I asked. BTW if not Betsy Ross, who else can be credited for the design of the Stars and Stripes?