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To: Criminal Number 18F
The M-16A1 thru A4 are attempts to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. Witness the number of changes made to the design. Bolt assist, a ejected case deflector, three shot burst limiter, hand guard, new ammunition, new rifle twist rate, new sighting system, new flash hider, the list is endless. The M1911 has had ONE. And those were all ergonomic. The original M-16 was developed by Gene Stoner, and marketed by Armalite.

Back in ’61, when I was about 12, an Armalite sales rep staged a demonstration for our county sheriff’s department at the local police range. Since my father was the state Hi-Power expert, he was invited to observe, and I got to go along.

The AR-15 was employed on a cinder wall, and blew it apart. I got to shoot it because the sales rep was trying to sell it on the fact that it had light recoil, as compared to the M-1. One trick he used was to place the butt against his chin and fire single shots.

The sheriff was underwhelmed. These were the days when police departments still cared what the citizens thought of them, and EVERYONE was a combat vet. A series of the 5.56mm rounds, impacting on a soft target, at ranges of 100 yards or less, tends to separate the target into large, soggy pieces. Blowing a felon apart in the middle of downtown was considered bad form, back then.

The Air Force, however, under Curtis LeMay, were the first to adopt the Armalite, for the SAC Air Police, during the early part of the JFK love affair with the Green Beanies. LeMay was hot to get funding, was jealous of what he considered undue attention being paid to what he considered a bunch of muddy, smelly snake eaters, and loved the latest Buck Rodgers toys. He wanted to show that zoomies could crawl thru the weeds with the best of them.

The Army adopted the Mattie Mattel because attempts to teach doggies how to shoot, without actually spending time snapping in, and further time living, eating and worshiping the great God, Rifle, were a failure. The current issue weapon, the M-14, required that the rifleman be comfortable with shooting. Instead, with the M-16, there was the “quickshoot” training, where the troopies were taught to replace aimed shot placement with “suppressing fires”, (spraying the area in hopes of a hit, witness the duplex round as another such attempt) by walking down a path and blasting away on full auto at pop-up targets.

The ARVNs got them next, when even the Five-Sided Square finally determined that the average dink was too small to handle a surplus M-1, and that the M-1 carbine can’t kill very well.

Well into Da'Nam, The Corps liked the idea of being able to shoot thru a palm tree and kill the man behind it.

The polite, Democratic, fiction that the ’16 was meant to wound and not kill, thus occupying 3 more caring individuals and burdening the logistics, is just that, fiction. An M-16 will rip a man to bits with one burst, at 75 meters. At 750 meters, you're just going to piss him off. Any wounded the VC, and later the NVA cared for, were most often injured by shell fragments. Care of the wounded is contingent on access to prompt medical treatment. Too often, mercy to the wounded is a bullet in the head. A man who has been gutted like a fish can live a surprisingly long time, and will scream every second of the rest of his life. Tactics indicate that whoever goes after him will get shot. Traumatic injuries often will not allow the injured man to politely bleed to death, and shock is not always a reliable anesthetic. When you add to the equation that if the Other side gets hold of him, they will see how long They can prolong his suffering, like sticking his wedding tackle on a twig several feet away, or peeling him like a banana, a bullet now is not such a bad offer.

The M-14 can be fired dry. This is not such a bad thing in the desert. The '14 is, however, too large for your average half-starved "freedom fighter."

Until the Geneva Convention is ignored, and frangible bullets are allowed, the 9mm will remain a joke. I watched a Spook who decided to bring his 9mm Swedish "K" gun on a snoop and poop in the Weeds. Events were that he emptied a full mag into a really P.O.d dink, who was about ready to gut the spook with a knife when a 12 Ga. loaded with dimes removed a big piece of meat and Mr. Charles went down...

If you have to let a bad guy, who you have seen approaching for the last week get within 100 meters to be able to put him away, there is something wrong with your weapon.

109 posted on 07/14/2003 7:47:54 PM PDT by jonascord (To Robert Service, with respect)
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To: Shooter 2.5
Bump to the top.
110 posted on 07/15/2003 8:21:19 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: jonascord
Well, you've got some strong opinions. Let me answer 'em briefly.
  1. changes to the M16: they were made for all kinds of different reasons. The deflector was for lefties; the round and twist rate required because the Marines wanted to shoot at stuff 800 yards away. The forward assist was a reaction to a screwup: Army bureaucrats changed the powder in the ammunition to an unsuitable load. The sights and handguard are product improvements -- that happens to a 40 year old product. The 3-shot burst is just retarded. It's what they do instead of training soldiers properly. I dunno why the Marines have it too -- they train their guys better. But you know, look at the generic 1911s in any gunshop and you'll see a lot more variation. Heck, look at the guns at a high-power match.
  2. A series of 5.56 rounds into a human at 100 yards makes holes in the human... it don't shred him. Sounds to me like hearsay.
  3. LeMay was a gun nut, and a gadget freak (not unusual traits in aviators). That's why he adopted the new, high-tech Stoner design. It had nothing to do with special ops. LeMay was a strategic bomber and interdiction enthusiast who cared little for what the Air Force then called the "Air Commandos." The security police are a different bunch... but one of their jobs was keeping his precious B-52s, RB-47s and B-58s safe.
  4. The "quick kill" training for the 16 was based on training Fairbairn developed in WWII for the Commandos and SOE. It is advanced training, given AFTER the soldier masters shooting on a range. In fact, it's coming back with the SBCTs. (Special Ops never entirely gave it up, and it's part of two of their most important shooting schools).
  5. Except for CIDG which had separate funding, Marvin the ARVN carried an M1. Until about 1970-71.
  6. At 750 metres, you are not in rifle engagement range. You are in crew-served weapons range. There were very few places in Vietnam where you could see a man at 750 metres.
  7. Likewise, the "half starved freedom fighters" I've worked with have no problem toting, say, a PKM and 600 rounds of ammo up a hill. Your average third world country boy is scrawny beyond belief, but he's walked his whole life and is in great cardiovascular condition.
  8. "mercy to the wounded is a bullet in the head" sounds like something from a movie, not real life. We treated our wounded, till we medevac'd them. We also treated prisoners. The right thing to do on several levels.
d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

111 posted on 07/15/2003 6:25:18 PM PDT by Criminal Number 18F (who took his life in his hands with that little Mattel, and is still overground.)
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