Dart Container Owners - Gave Up US Citizenship

Forbes Magazine ^ | 7-21-03 | J.N and William P. Barrett

[doosee]

Back for the umpteenth time in U.S. Tax Court:

Dart Container Corp., the Mason, Mich. Styrofoam cup maker owned by brothers Kenneth B. and Robert C. Dart, who gave up citizenship and live abroad.

This case: The Internal Revenue Service says Dart owes $19 million more in 1998 and 1999 taxes, primarily for wrongly deducting $45 million in "interest" payments, related to division of the family business in 1986 to settle a lawsuit by feuding sibling Thomas J. Dart. Dart Container says it's owed a $10 million refund.

Last year Dart entities paid $26 million in taxes--from 1994. --J.N. and William P. Barrett

[DannyTN]

"one could go on. "

Indeed one can. If forced to choose between those that would betray our country as leaders and those that would be cruel to the poor, I would choose the cruelty, for it would be cruel both to the poor and to us all to lose the country in the process.

I would hope though for a candidate that is neither traitorous, a usurper of power, desirous of big government, but at the same time compassionate leader who would guide us to truly help the poor rather than make them dependent.

The Clintonista's should never have happened. Who in this country couldn't see that there were very serious character flaws? And if they couldn't see it, why? Somehow we must educate the public to know what character is and to be able to recognize it as well as the absence of it.

[DannyTN]

"Or maybe he's a TN legislator, you know, the ones that start riots when they try to raise taxes? "

Indeed you have me wrong. I gave my employees permission to adjust their schedules to go participate in the riot and drive by the capital to honk their horns.

There is obvious waste in TN government. I'm not for TN shirking it's responsbilities, but neither am I so naive not to know that the governor was funding his pork projects even as he threatened not to be able to fund the things government is truly responsible for.

[DannyTN]

"If only Stalin could have had 10 million Dannys...

If only. Stalin would never have risen to power much less stayed there.

[DannyTN]

We seem to have long ago passed the point ...where we have true REPRESENTATION WITH our taxation.

Sorry, I didn't mean to excerpt that quote in such a way that it was the opposite of your point.

[DannyTN]

"Or maybe he's a TN legislator"

And if you want to know what is truly frustrating, is that Sunquist the Governor who was trying to raise the taxes was a Republican governor who I voted for.

And Bredesen the Democrat governor who is in office now, I didn't vote for because I thought as Nashville's mayor he built to many monuments to himself at taxpayer expense (The Titan's stadium, incentives to bring the Titan's to Nashville, the waterfront park, etc). But it turns out, the Democrat is cutting government and waste and not raising taxes!

Now to be sure, I consider both of them to be exceptions to their respective parties. But if I had to vote again and choose between the two, I would have to vote for the Democrat for perhaps the first time in history.

[LibertyAndJusticeForAll]

This story first broke many years ago. I have not used Styrofoam cups since then. Besides, later it was learned that hot drinks dissolve something in the Styrofoam and it is not good for us.
As I recall this guy tried or succeeded in getting a position in the country he became a citizen of as an ambassador to the U.S.; just so he could continue living in the U.S. and see his family.
He is just a crook and if they can prosecute him for anything I hope they succeed.

[Quix]

It does seem that all nations sooner or later get the leaders they deserve.

In that sense, yeah, I guess we got what we had coming with Billdo and Shrillery.

Agree strongly with your points about the populace being educated.

But that happens most if not only effectively from father (and mother) to children when children are ages 1-6. And children are educated by what parents DO vs what they say.

And now we get into tracing the problem all the way back to Adam.

[Quix]

I too would prefer to preserve the Republic.

But I'd prefer that the poor get helped by churches acting more like The Body of Christ as they are SUPPOSED to.

And, I'd almost like to see voting tied to some minimal IQ test; civid affairs test; honorable behavior test and maybe even a minimal discernment test.

But then I hate government testing citizens.

[Quix]

THANKS.

[DannyTN]

"And, I'd almost like to see voting tied to some minimal IQ test"

Yeah, almost. If I didn't think they would skew the test and use it to discriminate against conservatives or particular viewpoints, I'd agree.

I don't like get out the vote campaigns for the same reason. If people aren't aware of the issues or the how the candidate stands, don't vote just to be voting!

[DannyTN]

"But I'd prefer that the poor get helped by churches acting more like The Body of Christ as they are SUPPOSED to. "

I understand the viewpoint. But I'm not convinced that the bibical directive is for ONLY the body of Christ to help the poor and to for the body of Christ to ONLY use non-governmental means. Especially in light of some of the verses I've posted or the story of Joseph or the way that God directed Israel to help the poor in Leviticus using both a portion of the tithe as well as more direct help.

In fact, to use ONLY non-governmental sources to help them does several things...

• It subjects the poor to the level of generosity of the local community which in times of regional economic distress could dry up.
• Rather than insuring a minimal level of support, it subjects the poor to the generosity of the body of Christ. If you know what percent of your local church actually tithes, you will understand the concern. Too many of our members are immature. I suppose the church's increasing our direct responsibility may help the church mature, but I'm not convinced of it. Especially in light of the way the founding fathers considered it.
• I suspect that some of those advocating the church only view are not Christians and would therefore be relieved at making voluntary any contribution to what the founding fathers considered a "civil" duty
• Unless the church develops a tracking system, it subjects the church to abuse as some have been known to seek support from multiple churches and be abusive of the church's generosity in that manner. But such a tracking system in private hands would itself be subject to abuse.
• In some ways, the government is in a position to more evenly decide the matter and weigh who is poor and who is not.
• Nor am I convinced that all ministers should be entrusted with care for the poor without oversight. For there are some who set themselves up in the ministry who are neither Christian nor act like it.

• There is a part of me that says the Poor could be forced to receive spiritual instruction if only the church administered aid to the Poor.
• But then which church? Should I subject them to Jehovah's Witness which denies the Diety of Christ or Mormons with their multiple Gods and visions of Godhood. The fact is some of the cults have a legalistic approach that beats the real church in it's generosity although the motive is clearly wrong.

One of the questions I have in the matter is why did the founding fathers consider it a "civil" duty and provide Poor Laws for each of the states, rather than consider it solely a church function.

I know it dates back to at least the 13th century following the English Poor Laws when the State and the Church were combined.

If Kings were instructed to have mercy towards the poor and to consider the cause of the poor and needy, then how is it that when Christians are empowered with the government, a government of the people, they believe they should not use governmental power in this manner?

If the founding fathers at a time when Christianity was much more prevalent didn't rely solely on the church but rather considered it a civil duty, I'm really hesitant to accept the claim that now that a lower percent claim and practice Christianity, we should change.

[Quix]

Wellllllllllll, the

"But I'd prefer that the poor get helped by churches acting more like The Body of Christ as they are SUPPOSED to. "

AS THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO

was a very key phrase. I'd hate for the poor to depend on The Church as it is now, too.

But IF it WERE operating as THE BODY OF CHRIST IS SUPPOSED TO, I suspect there'd be few poor going absolutely destitute.

I agree with the problems of The Church you outline.

So, given the sad state of the church, how much government stuff would I support--NOT as much as is so common now in SOME respects.

I know from a lifetime welfare worker that as she claimed--there was far less abuse etc. than most people thought. At least I trust her honesty about that.

But personally, I still think there's far more than needs to be. How to solve it is a tricky question.

[DannyTN]

"So, given the sad state of the church, how much government stuff would I support--NOT as much as is so common now in SOME respects. "

I agree, I'm certain there are areas that could be cut, but probably not indiscrimately. I think there are disincentives, incentives, and other things that should be modified.

I know from a lifetime welfare worker that as she claimed--there was far less abuse etc. than most people thought. At least I trust her honesty about that.

I know that there are a lot of poor who can't work, mentally ill, developmentally disabled, crippled, elderly, sick, etc. I don't really have a feel for how much abuse, I'm certain there is some. There shouldn't be any stories of whole generations living on welfare but there are. That's an indication there are progams out there that aren't well designed.

But personally, I still think there's far more than needs to be. How to solve it is a tricky question.

We are very much in agreement.

[DannyTN]

See Posts 111-113.

[fightu4it]

"I'd rather have more people able to generate millions of dollars of wealth and less of the people willing to tax millions of dollars of wealth away. Why don't you bar them instead?"

For one thing, you can't cure the problem by running from it. I sympathize with the fact that he doesn't want his money wasted on things like IU profs pouring over dirty pictures in an effort to see if they become aroused; but if everyone simply cannot leave the country they love because it has been hijacked, temporarily, by a bunch of idiots.

Take the fight to them! Don't run.

[Quix]

much in agreement???

Goodness! What will happen to my reputation hereon!

Get ready to run from the crowd that loves to assault tin-foil hat wearers!

LOL, joking.

[doosee]

As I recall this guy tried or succeeded in getting a position in the country he became a citizen of as an ambassador to the U.S.; just so he could continue living in the U.S. and see his family. He is just a crook and if they can prosecute him for anything I hope they succeed

That helps me to understand the type of people they are. The heir to Campbells soup did the same thing as I understand it. No shame at all, just self centered greed and damn the country. It would make me extremely happy to see a law passed that would make these people fill out a 50 page document and write an essay on the US Constitution every single time they wanted to "visit" US...

[pageonetoo]

So you love to pay tax. Did you know that the Income tax is a scam? Did you know that p[aying tax is VOLUNTARY? Did you know the USA was never intended to be directly funded by its citizens?? Read your history books! Better yet, KNOW YOUR HISTORY!

It truly is time to have a Constitutional Convention, before the foreign nationals, living here illegally, can find more ways to take our hard earned dollars!