507th's weapons failed in combat, Army report says (M-16 Rifle)

El Paso Times ^ | July 10, 2003 | Diana Washington Valdez

[Aliska]

This has been discussed before here on FR, but I don't have the link to the old article. At that time, people didn't believe there was a problem with the M-16. There may indeed be a problem with the weapon jamming.

Not my area of expertise but thought some would find it interesting.

[Support Free Republic]

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[xrp]

The M-16 is the Army's standard issue weapon.

Not for too much longer...

[Ed_in_NJ]

Arer they made in China, or Mexico?

[Aliska]

That looks hard to handle. What is it?

[Prodigal Son]

Here's the whole article.

Several soldiers of the 507th Maintenance Company could not defend themselves or their comrades March 23 because their weapons malfunctioned while they sustained a lengthy fire attack by Iraqis near Nasiriyah, Iraq, according to a U.S. Army report on the ambush.

The weapons that jammed or otherwise failed included a M-249 machine gun called a SAW (squad automatic weapon), a .50 caliber machine gun, as well as several M-16 rifles. The M-16 is the Army's standard issue weapon.

The report is not conclusive about why up to three different kinds of weapons failed and suggests that the "malfunctions may have resulted from inadequate individual maintenance in a desert environment."

Pentagon and Fort Bliss officials declined to comment Wednesday on any aspects of the report until it is released to the public today or Friday. Nine members of the 507th died, four were wounded and another six were captured in the ambush.

Amalia Estrella, mother of Pvt. Ruben Estrella-Soto, said that although she was told June 27 about her son's death, she and her husband are not satisfied with what they were told.

"I can accept a human error because they are human; it's the desert and it's difficult. But where was the combat support?" she asked. "They took a long time to bring my son's body to me because he was supposedly shot in the head and a piece of his head was missing. They asked me to sign a paper that said I would accept my son without this body part. Now, they are telling me that when he was trying to escape from the (ambush) his vehicle struck an Iraqi tank and it was the impact that killed him, and not a gunshot."

The military report does not address whether the ammunition was sufficient for the attack that lasted 60 to 90 minutes, or whether any of the weapons had been listed as unusable previously because they had not been working properly.

Some of the Fort Bliss soldiers who experienced problems with their weapons include Cpl. Damien Luten, Spc. Joseph Hudson, Sgt. James Riley and Spc. James Grubb. A convoy that included 507th commander Capt. Troy King and other soldiers "returned fire while moving," and without specifying which soldiers and what weapons were involved, the report said "most of the soldiers in this (other) group report that they (too) experienced weapons malfunctions."

The report said Luten "attempted to return fire with the 507th's only .50 cal. machine gun, but the weapon failed." Another part of the report said "Spc. Grubb returned fire with his M-16 until wounded in both arms, despite reported jamming of his weapon" and Riley tried getting a slain 507th soldier's M-16 "since his own rifle had malfunctioned." Hudson, who was driving one of the vehicles during the attack, tried to fire his M-249 "but it malfunctioned," the report said.

Among the first to return fire were Pfc. Edward Anguiano and Sgt. George Buggs of the 3rd Forward Support Battalion, who were attached to the 507th convoy. They fired their M-249 from the rear of the Humvee they were in, but later died. Other weapons issued to the unit members were the M-9 (9 mm pistol), which is usually given to officers and senior enlisted soldiers, and the MK-19 (40 mm grenade machine gun).

Before the convoy's departure from Camp Virginia, Kuwait, "the soldiers were issued a basic combat load of ammunition for their personal weapons" (210 rounds for the M-16, 1,000 rounds for the M-249 and 45 rounds for the M-9). They were also issued ammunition for the .50 caliber machine gun and the MK-19 grenade machine gun, "however, all pyrotechnics, hand grenades, and AT-4 anti-tank weapons were consolidated and secured (locked away)," the report said.

While at Camp Virginia, the 507th had training and preparations for ambush procedures, rules of engagement (the legal rules for when and how you fight an enemy) and weapons maintenance, the report said. Although the soldiers "observed armed civilians and what appeared to be armed Iraqi soldiers at the two checkpoints ... (and) the Iraqi soldiers at the checkpoint waved to the convoy," the 507th members were prevented from firing their weapons at them unless they detected a hostile intent.

The report said the supply convoy received small arms and rocket-propelled grenade fire from all sides. Several soldiers were killed or injured as a result of gunfire or because of wrecks during the ambush.

[Aliska]

Arer they made in China, or Mexico?

I don't know much about any of this. They were talking about it locally this afternoon. Among the snippets I picked up was that the Remington something is more reliable and that we shouldn't be buying Beretta's from Italy.

Our troops deserve the best, that's all I can say.

[gitmo]

Please educate ... what is that?

[templar]

Nice to see the M16 works as well in Iraq as it did for me in VietNam.

[Aliska]

Thanks. I always excerpt because I don't like to get FR into difficulties with the papers.

[Prodigal Son]

From the article:

The report is not conclusive about why up to three different kinds of weapons failed and suggests that the "malfunctions may have resulted from inadequate individual maintenance in a desert environment."

We're talking about 3 different weapons systems here. Not just the M16. I've posted as much on another thread that I thought either inadequate maintenance or inadequate instruction or operation were at fault for this. That's the only way to explain it. These weren't infantry folk- these were clerks and mechanics. Not to knock 'em but from my own experience, the level of maintenance and knowledge of weapons was much lower among these MOS than in the combat specialties. The 50 Cal in particular is a time tested and reliable weapon. If you take care of it- it shoots.

[Servant of the Nine]

The weapons that jammed or otherwise failed included a M-249 machine gun called a SAW (squad automatic weapon), a .50 caliber machine gun, as well as several M-16 rifles.

If these people couldn't keep Ma Deuce firing they know nothing about maintainance.
That leads me to believe none of the weapons was at fault.
The operators were.

So9

[Prodigal Son]

This isn't one those papers though is it? FR is an awesome research tool for Freepers and nonFreepers alike. I've bookmarked good articles from other sources only to come back later and find the article "altered" or gone. Once we get it into FR's archives, it's there for everybody and doesn't get missing later when it's needed for research.

LOL- it's like a fossil in a museum. It's there.

[Prodigal Son]

If these people couldn't keep Ma Deuce firing they know nothing about maintainance.

Pretty much ;-)

[tet68]

Sounds like more of a maintance problem, the problem occurred in several weapon types, not a good sign.
someone wasn't keeping the troops on the ball, is my guess.

[Ispy4u]

Exactly what I was thinking.

Well Said.

[Aliska]

Nice to see you lived to tell about it :-).

[Aliska]

I didn't try to search for the old one because I couldn't remember any of the key words. Maybe somebody has it bookmarked and can provide a link. There was something about a Col. Hackworth in it, and everybody seemed to look dimly on him as a reliable source.

[Servant of the Nine]

Among the snippets I picked up was that the Remington something is more reliable and that we shouldn't be buying Beretta's from Italy.

The Beretta is the only shotgun in the world designed from the ground up as a combat weapon. The ones we buy will be made here by Beretta USA.

There are still people who don't trust an automnatic shotgun and claim the Remington pump is more reliable. That has not been true since plastic replaced cardboard in shotshell manufacture 30 years ago.

So9

[tortoise]

These weren't infantry folk- these were clerks and mechanics.

And therein lies the problem. These people had essentially zero experience using their weapons in the field. The article basically says that every weapon system they had "failed". It sounds a hell of a lot like operator failure to me.

Incidentally, I've used M16s for weeks at a time in all sorts of filthy nasty conditions and never had a problem, even with very minimal maintenance. But then, I was infantry and I knew my weapon backward and forward.