The Crusader's reply: Eve was born without sin because God created her that way. And if God can create one woman without sin, He can create another. As Saint Paul called Jesus "the new Adam", it reveals that a sinless One had to assume this role, and that sinless One was Jesus Christ. It follows then, that Mary was the "New Eve", for as the sinless Eve said 'yes' to the devil and brought death into the world, a sinless Mary, "full of grace",, said 'yes' to the angel, and brought Salvation into the world. This is the classical/historical/ perrennial teaching of the Christian faith since the early centuries. The oldest Christian liturgies on earth are the Eastern liturgies, ("Orthodox", Syrian, Coptic, etc). These particular liturgies actually predate the Roman/Latin liturgy of the Catholic Church. And all of these ancient Christian Churches revere and venerate the Virgin Mary as being free from Original Sin, as being a perpetual Virgin, and as dying sinless. ALL OF THEM. There is just no escaping the truth, it always has a way of making itself known, (if we seek it).
Eve was born without sin – this is before the Fall. After the Fall, all mankind inherited a sin nature, original sin and commit personal sins. Christ was the only exception, because He was the Son of God, literally God in human form. He had the divine nature, and an unfallen human nature. And because He was the only virgin born person who ever existed, He had not even the taint of original sin. God, not Joseph, was His Father. Mary, however, did have a human father. Thus she inherited a sin nature and the taint of Orginal Sin. And, although she was a very godly woman, she was not sinless. Eve was not sinless her entire life, and neither was Mary. How do I know this?
Rom.5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all mankind, because all sinned;
Of course God CAN create another woman without sin. The issue is not what God CAN do, it is what His Word says He DID do. Jesus is called the “new" or "second Adam.” But Eve is never called the new Eve or the second Eve in Scripture.
If the Bible doesn’t teach it “it does NOT follow then.” The Bible never says that Eve’s sin brought death into the world. It ascribes that to Adam’s sin. Adam was the federal head of the human race, not Eve. Again, note:
Rom.5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all mankind, because all sinned;
The Bible teaches explicitly that Jesus was sinless. The Bible says He "knew no sin" [2 Cor.5:21], that He was "without sin" [Heb.4:15], and that He was "separate from sinners" [Heb.7:26] It nowhere says, or even alludes to Mary being sinless. You are astounded that I don't ascribe sinlessness to Mary, even though the Bible supports my position, not yours.
What part of ALL do you not understand?
Rom.3:23 For ALL have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.
Mary rejoiced in God and called him her Savior. Why? Because Christ had come to die for her sins as well as the sins of the rest of mankind.
Isa.53:6 ALL we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, EVERY ONE, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us ALL.
The last time I checked, Mary was a Jew. Since she was a Jew, and the Bible nowhere declares her sinless, she falls under the scope of the Apostle Paul’s statement:
Rom.3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged BOTH JEWS AND GREEKS THAT THEY ARE ALL UNDER SIN.
And Mary did not bring Salvation into the world, Christ did. Mary was the mother of Christ’s humanity, not His deity. He was God for an eternity past before His birth. He is the only person every born who, at His birth, was as old as His Father, and older than His mother. This is why Jesus could say, “before Abraham was, I am,” and it could be said of Him, "In the beginning was the Word."
If the Catholic dogma of Mary’s supposed sinlessness is so ancient and universal, why was it not declared by the Roman Catholic church until 1850?
And as for Mary being considered sinless because she is called "Blessed," by that line of reasoning I am sinless because Jesus said of future believers who would come after His death:
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Mary was not called "blessed" because she was sinless, she was called blessed because the great honor of being the woman chosen to bear the Messiah had been given to her. You undercut your own position concerning Mary when you said:
And all of these ancient Christian Churches revere and venerate the Virgin Mary as being free from Original Sin, as being a perpetual Virgin, and as dying sinless. ALL OF THEM. I thought Roman Catholic dogma claimed that Mary did not die at all, but that she ascended directly into heaven. This ancient doctrine as dogma goes way back to 1950.
By the way, I’m glad you realize that the Greek Orthodox church actually predates the Catholic church. But liturgy is supposed to be based on biblical doctrine. Our doctrine is not supposed to based on liturgy.
Even during the Apostolic age, Paul saw many professing Christians being drawn away from the original and only divinely revealed Gospel that Paul had first preached to them:
Gal.1:6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ. 11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Jesus himself left no room for misunderstanding concerning any attempt to exalt Mary to a position above any other believer:
Luke 8:20 And it was told him by certain which said, Thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to see thee. 21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.
Matth.12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
You did make one statement with which I agree:
There is just no escaping the truth, it always has a way of making itself known, (if we seek it).
NOTE: About the only people now posting on this thread are me and you. It is apparent that we are not going to convince each other, so this may be my last post. I hold no ill will against you and I'll pray for you. My words cannot convince anyone of any spiritual truth. Only the Word of God can do that. The Word is so crucial that God has even elevated it above His name:
Psa.138:2 I will worship toward Your holy temple, And praise Your name For Your lovingkindness and Your truth; For You have magnified Your word above all Your name. 2 Tim.3:13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Acts 17:10 Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.
1. Rubberstamp technique ~ Regurgitate Catholic doctrine without the least hint of concern as to providing a scriptural proof. Otherwise, known as propaganda.2. Cut-and-paste technique ~ Find the closest doctrinal defense on "Catholic Answers" website, stick it into your clipboard and post away. Upon receiving a scriptural rebuttal, switch the topic to Catholic infallibility and then utilize the rubberstamp technique.
3. Accusation of hate technique ~ Insist vehemently that your opponent is full of hate. It is always advisable to paint your opponent as hateful. This technique should always contain a reference to your extreme caringness and the limitless bounds of your great humility.
4. Mystery interpretation technique ~ Any text can mean anything when interpretated under the mystical interpretation technique. Use this to your advantage then utilize the rubberstamp technique. Most often used with Eucharistic defenses. Symbolic? No! Literal? No! Mysterious? What else can you do?
5. Words without meaning technique ~ If you are receiving any roadblocks by any particular word you previously gave in your apologetic, or if what you've described is the definition of a word detrimental to your defense, simply deny the basic word meaning of the troubling term. Due to its effectiveness, this apologetic has become so popular that it has been adopted by the President.
6. Bait and Switch technique ~ If your apologetics are being shot down repeatedly, it is because you are staying on one topic for too long. In the Catholic apologetics arena, it is always a good idea to present a moving target. If your perpetual virginity defense is becoming an embarrassment, switch it to a virgin birth defense, pretend your opponent has denied it and act outraged at his heresy.
7. Attack Sola Scriptura technique ~ Put forth that scripture is only one of the sources of God's revelation. However, due to the overwhelming levels of contradictory doctrines, this will usually have to be accompanied with the rubberstamping technique.
8. Attack Martin Luther technique ~ This can be used as a companion apologetic to the Attack Sola Scriptura technique. Always refer to your opponent as a Protestant to imply that Biblical Christianity began with the "Reformation." Insist the opponent is a follower of Martin Luther. Do not accept any denials of this. Rubberstamp him as a follower of Martin Luther if they refute this accusation.
9. Stalking technique ~ Harrass the Christian until he becomes a Catholic. Can utilize any of the other above methods. The object is to fill their e-mail and guestbooks daily with Catholic apologetics. When your opponent will no longer respond to you, insist that he is afraid to debate you. Continue to harrass them until they denounce speaking out against Catholicism or you are at risk of losing your ISP account for a second time. If you are about to lose your ISP a second time, pass the baton over to a fellow Catholic apologist.
10. Babbling technique ~ Remember when you were a kid. If you closed your eyes, danger would go away. This technique is a variation on that theme. When backed into a corner, begin babbling about anything remotely related to the topic on hand and the opponent may forget that you were ever engaged in a debate in the first place. With all the other fine Catholic apologetic techniques available, this one is usually not advised.
So many of your Biblical interpreations have already been shot down like flies, (such as your false claim that all men must taste death, Enoch and Elijah did not die), that I should think you'd be too embarrassed to continue on with this foolishness. sigh. But like all good Bible thumping fundamentalists, you commit the error of believing that the New Testament, (given to you courtesy of Saint Jerome and the Catholic Church in 400 A.D.), is the only word of God, and that Christ didn't do and say many other things that were taught that didn't get recorded. Your other grave error is believing that you possess the true interpretation of Scripture. But the New Testament itself tells us both of these paths lead to destruction:
(1). "First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God". (2 Peter 1:20).
(2). "So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures". (2 Peter 3:15).
"I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. (John 16:12)
What did John the Evangelist say about your false claim that the Bible is the only source of Christian teachings?
"But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written." (John 21:25)
The other error you fall into is that fact that the Bible contains nothing that goes against the 2,000 year old Christian tradition that holds that Mary was sinless. The fact that the tradition is 2,000 years old is enough to end this case. The Bible only serves to indicate the reality of Mary's unique purity by calling her "full of grace", and "blessed amongst women". The Bible further indicates a unique status for Mary when we see the Archangel Gabriel reverencing Mary with his angelic greeting: "Hail, full of grace". Also in Luke we see the yet-to-be-born John the Baptist leap for joy" in Elizabeth's womb when Mary enters her house. After John the Baptist, of whom Jesus said: "No one born of woman is greater than", (Mathew 11:11) extolled Mary with his leap of joy, his mother Elizabeth declared that Mary was "the mother of my Lord", and asked by what grace should Mary come to honor her with a visit; (Luke 1:43).
Shouldn't all Christians honor Mary as the angel Gabriel did, as Elizabeth did, as John the Baptist did, and as the servants at Cana did at the wedding? (John 2:5)
Then we read in Luke 1 that Mary bestows the Title of "blessed for all generations" upon herself. "All generations" means perpetually, forever. Again in Luke 1 we read that Mary was already saved, even before the birth of the Saviour: "My soul rejoices in God my saviour". <-- This was a declaration that no one else in the entire Scripture could make until after the Saviour was born. It was an apparent referral to her unique status as a perpetual and sinless virgin. For nobody else under Heaven was saved before the birth of Jesus Christ.
Lastly, there is a huge fresco of the Virgin Mary in the Priscilla Catacombs of Rome, it is dated to the 2nd century. This is where the earliest Christians worshipped, due to Roman persecution. Evidence of ancient Christian veneration, (not worship), of the Virgin Mary is abundant. Even in the Bible the unknown woman who followed Jesus said to Him: "Blessed is the women who bore thee and gave thee suck".
Yet the prots and fundies go around seeking to find ways to make Mary not blessed, but just another sinner. Not exactly a wise thing to do to Christ's beloved Mother, and certainly not a means of honoring Her as "blessed among women". Pity the fundies and prots who worship a book, a book that they viscerate and butcher with their own personal interpreations at that. If it's the "Bible only", one must wonder what happened to those poor Christians of the first 400 years before a Bible was assembled into one book, and who never knew which of the few scattered epistles and gosples they read were the inspired ones. For it is known that many false gospels and non-inspired epistles circulated thoughout all of the Christian Churches until Saint Jerome weeded out the false gosples and letters, and assembled a book that later became known as the New Testament, in 400 A.D.