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To: TheCrusader
As for your continual attacks against "Mary, the mother of Jesus", it might just be advisable to stop attacking her purity. She was, after all, the human arc of our Saviour. Do you really believe it pleases Jesus in any way when His own mother is spoken of as a sinner? Do you imagine Him smiling when you say such things? Mary was not the only woman born without sin in the Bible. Eve was the first to have this distinction...The Bible that you profess to know and love says that "all generations shall call me, (Mary), blessed", (Luke 1:48). I call her blessed, you call her a sinner. Elizabeth exclaimed whe she saw Mary: "BLESSED are you among women,...

I never "attacked" Mary. Eve was born without sin because the Fall of mankind into sin had not yet occurred. Since then, Romans 5 says that death has passed upon all mankind. To call any descendant of Adam a sinner is not to "attack" them but to agree with what the Bible says:

The Bible, not me, says that Mary was blessed, and a sinner.

Rom.3:23 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

The message to all of mankind is this:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Mary called God HER SAVIOR. All mankind, like Mary, needs a Savior. Mary is in heaven, not because of her righteousness, but because Christ died for her sins, like he died for mine.

Jesus Christ was the one who was sinless, and the only one. He is the one we should exalt, and pray through, not Mary. The New Testament is devoid of any mention of a believer praying to Mary or claiming she was sinless or that she ascended into heaven. When others tried to exalt Mary, Jesus countered their error:

Luke 8:19 Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd. 20 And it was told Him by some, who said, "Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You." 21 But He answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it."

225 posted on 08/04/2003 2:20:28 PM PDT by razorbak
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To: razorbak
"I never "attacked" Mary. Eve was born without sin because the Fall of mankind into sin had not yet occurred."

You've just hung yourself on your own tree of non-biblical theology. The Bible does not tell us why Eve was born without sin. You just keep making it up as you go along. In fact, the Bible does not even tell us that Eve was born without sin; the Catholic Church does.

"Since then, Romans 5 says that death has passed upon all mankind. To call any descendant of Adam a sinner is not to "attack" them but to agree with what the Bible says:"

Correction, you mean it is to agree with what you think the Bible says. The Bible clearly teaches us that death has not passed itself on to all men, and all of Christianity teaches that both Enoch and Elijah passed from this life into Heaven without dying:

"By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had taken him." (Hebrews 11:5).

"And as they still went on and talked, behold, a chariot of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (2 Kings 2:11)

"The Bible, not me, says that Mary was blessed, and a sinner."

The Bible says no such thing - again, I hold to your own brand of theology, "Bible only". You have failed to show the verse that says Mary was a sinner.

"Rom.3:23 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"

And even the angels of Heaven give reverence to Mary, and greet her with angelic dignity: "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!", the angel Gabriel greeted Mary. As we know that Mary was full of grace, there could be no room for sin to co-exist within a being full of grace. The word "angel" means 'messenger'. Hence, it was God himself who first spoke those beautiful words to Mary, "Hail, full of grace, I am with you", through the message of his angel Gabriel. Perhaps your teddy bear, smiley faced Jesus could live and grow within a womb of sin, but the Jesus Christ of the true Christian faith, the Catholic Church, is far more dignified that that.

(Saint Ephrem the Syrian - 306 A.D. - 373 A.D.), called in his day "the pillar of the Church", and "the Lyre of the Holy Ghost". This great early Christian Saint, ordained by Saint Basil, written of by Saint Gregory of Nyssa, and a man who fought vigorously agaisnt the heresies of his day, the gnostics, the Arians, the Manicheans, wrote of Mary:

"Verily indeed, Thou and Thy Mother, alone are you, in being in every respect altogether beautiful. For in Thee, Lord, is no spot, nor any stain in thy mother", (Carmina Nisibena, n. 27). ~~~ The earliest Christians were already reverencing the Mother of God as being sinless, (due to God's grace, not by her own virtue.).

"Mary called God HER SAVIOR. All mankind, like Mary, needs a Savior. Mary is in heaven, not because of her righteousness, but because Christ died for her sins, like he died for mine."

What a profound half truth. Yes, Jesus died for Mary too, and she reigns as Queen of Heaven because of Christ's mercy. But Mary, and Mary alone, could proclaim her salvation before the birth of Jesus Christ due to her being born without the stain of sin. There is no other possible reason why Mary could, or would, make this declaration while Salvation had yet to come into the world. You fail to address this Biblical reality.

"The New Testament is devoid of any mention of a believer praying to Mary or claiming she was sinless or that she ascended into heaven."

I think it's about time you stopped embarrassing yourself with this pretentious claim to Biblical understanding. The Bible also does not use the terms "Trinity", or "Incarnation". These are Christian theological extractions that were developed only later on in Christianity at the various Councils. The Bible also does not refer to John the Baptist as being the last Old Testament Prophet, yet he was just that, according to all Christian theology. The Bible is not the Church, but a book within the teaching Church that Jesus founded. Jesus never wrote a word, Jesus never gave the Apostles a book to study. Jesus taught orally, and the Apostles taught orally. They did not carry any books off onto their worldwide evangelistical ventures, they carreid the Word of God, as they heard it. Christianity flourished all over the world long before the New Testament was even completed.

When others tried to exalt Mary, Jesus countered their error: "Luke 8:19 Then His mother and brothers came to Him, and could not approach Him because of the crowd. 20 And it was told Him by some, who said, "Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see You." 21 But He answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it."

Am I to take this to mean you think Mary was not Jesus' mother? I won't even debate such idiocy. As for Jesus' "brothers", two things. There is no Hebrew term for cousin, hence, brothers, cousins, and sometimes even uncles were all called "brothers". Another meaning for "brothers" is 'followers'. Notice also that the Bible never once called these people "the sons of Mary", yet it does refer to Jesus as "the son of Mary and Joseph".

You are way too deep into Biblical fundamentalism, taking a line here and there and then conveniently self-interpreting it to mean whatever you want it to mean. I"ll pray for you.

226 posted on 08/04/2003 4:49:06 PM PDT by TheCrusader
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