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To: RedBloodedAmerican
"God is the One who preserves His word, not the Catholic Church."

Of course this is true; and God uses the church He founded on Peter, (Mathew 16:18), to accomplish the task.


"And so you say the pope never saved anyone? Then what is his definition of purgatory?"

Purgatory is where those already saved reside, until they are purged from any minor sin they died with.

The existence of purgatory was universally taught by all the Fathers of the Church. The words of Our Lord, taught in parable form, "You shall not come out from it until you have paid the last penny" are very clear. (Matt. 5:25-26).

There are serious sins that can condemn us to Hell, and lesser ones that do not, as St. John the Evangelist teaches us: "He that knows his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death.---and there is a sin unto death." (1 John, 5:16-17).

Yet, all sin, even minor sin we die with, must be punished, for "nothing unclean can enter (heaven)", (Revelation 21:27).

Jesus reveals that sins against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven in this world, "or in the next"; implying that some sins can be forgiven in the next world: "And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this world or in the next.". (Mathew 12:32)

Paul also shows his belief in purgatory when, in his second letter to Timothy, he prays for the deceased Onesiphorus. "May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day" (2 Tim. 1:18).

OTHER SCRIPTURAL REFERENCES TO PURGATORY

"If any mans work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire". (I Corinthians 3:15)

"For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin." (2 Maccabees 12: 44-45)

NOTE: The two books of Maccabees, called the "Apocrypha" by Protestants, but held as canonical Scripture by the Catholic Church since 400 A.D., can be used to prove the doctrine of Purgatory even though Protestants and Fundamentalists reject it as inspired Scripture. This is so because all mainstream Christian denominations and Scripture scholars do accept these books as accurate historical accounts of Old Testament Jewish faith. Thus, they are included in most Protestant Bibles as "Apocrypha" because they are regognized for their excellent historical value, even though rejected as inspired verses. Hence, we know from the ancient historical accounts of 2 Maccabees that the Old Testament Jews did believe in Purgatory, or a place of rest between Heaven and earth where prayers can be effective to their salvation.

pax Christi

206 posted on 07/22/2003 10:24:47 PM PDT by TheCrusader
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To: TheCrusader
Though there is no biblical basis for purgatory, there is a strong philosophical need for it in Roman Catholic theology. The Church views salvation as the objective adornment or beautification of the soul. It is a process which starts at baptism through which sanctifying grace is initially infused. This makes the soul holy and inherently pleasing to God. Other sacraments and good works further justify the soul and make it increasingly attractive to God. The goal is to transform the essential character of the soul into something which is in itself objectively good. It is, therefore, only reasonable to require the complete cleansing of every vestige of sin before the soul can come into the presence of God. Purgatory, therefore, is the logical extension of the Church’s process of salvation.

Purgatory is also an integral element of the Roman Catholic penitential system. According to the Church, every sin credits temporal punishment to the sinner’s account. Acts of penance, suffering, and indulgences debit this account. Since sinners may not make full satisfaction for sin in this life, purgatory in the afterlife is necessary to balance the ledger.

Finally, the Church uses purgatory to motivate Catholics to live righteously. If there were no purgatory, the reasoning goes, people would go on sinning without fear.

Biblical salvation, on the other hand, has no need of a place such as purgatory. Biblical salvation does not rely on the works and sufferings of sinners, but solely upon Christ. The Lord Jesus "made purification of sins" (Hebrews 1:3) on the cross. His blood can cleanse the vilest sinner (Hebrews 9:14). There is no temporal punishment remaining for which the believer must atone; Jesus paid it all: "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins" (1 John 2:2).

Biblical salvation has no need for a place such as purgatory where the soul supposedly becomes objectively beautiful to God. Rather, it is rooted in God’s imputation of His own perfect righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:21). Biblical salvation brings a "righteousness that is by faith from first to last" (Romans 1:17 (NIV)). The sinner places his trust in Christ for justification. He walks by faith and through the enablement of the Spirit lives righteously. Nevertheless, he has no hope of ever being personally and objectively good enough in himself to stand in the presence of God. He trusts in Christ alone for salvation (Philippians 3:7-9).

Rather than focusing on the good works and suffering of the individual, biblical salvation emphasizes the perfect work of Christ. He is sufficient to make sinners "stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy" (Jude 24). God no longer looks at the person as a defiled sinner, but sees him only in Christ (Ephesians 1:1-14), "holy and blameless before Him" (Ephesians 1:4).

Finally, biblical salvation involves a new birth that results in a new creation (John 3:7; 2 Corinthians 2:17; Galatians 6:17; Ephesians 2:15). A born-again Christian wants to obey God. He is motivated by the love of Christ, not the fear of painful retribution (2 Corinthians 5:14; Romans 8:15).

Do Catholics Still Believe in Purgatory?

Many modern Catholics think of purgatory as a relic from the Dark Ages, which they would just as soon forget. Some Catholics even believe that purgatory is no longer a Roman Catholic doctrine.

Despite popular opinion, however, purgatory is still an official dogma of the Roman Catholic Church and an essential part of the Roman Catholic plan of salvation. The Church affirmed the existence of purgatory at each of the last three ecumenical councils: Trent, Vatican I, and Vatican II. The latter council described purgatory as a place where the souls of the dead make expiation "in the next life through fire and torments or purifying punishments." According to Vatican II, "in purgatory the souls of those ‘who died in the charity of God and truly repentant, but who had not made satisfaction with adequate penance for their sins and omissions’ are cleansed after death with punishments designed to purge away their debt." The Catechism of the Catholic Church describes purgatory as place of "cleansing fire."[1031]

Belief in the existence of purgatory is also expressed at every Mass. During the Liturgy of the Eucharist, prayers are offered for the dead. Usually the Mass itself is also offered for someone suffering in purgatory. The person’s name is announced or published in the Sunday bulletin. Each year, in fact, on the anniversary of the death of the last pope, the present pope offers Mass for the souls of his two predecessors who are, presumably, still suffering in purgatory.

The Vatican would want Catholics to believe that its doctrine of purgatory is confirmed and supported by Holy Scripture. However, the Roman Catholic Church makes invalid attempts to do so by misconstruing the following Scriptures and Apocryphal writings:

Under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia. Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin. (2 Maccabees 12:40-46)

The book of Maccabees, along with the other Apocryphal books, were never included in the Jewish canon because they contain historical, geographical and theological errors. The Vatican added these books to its canon in the 16th century in a futile attempt to validate its doctrine of purgatory. It only shows the ignorance of the Jews regarding the unchanging destiny that awaits those who die in sin. For the Catholic Church to support a dogma based on this heretical practice of the Jews only perpetuates the error. Furthermore, in Catholic theology, the sin of idolatry is mortal and punishable in hell, not purgatory.

Paul wrote: "...each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward." (1 Corinthians 3:13-15).

Paul is clearly teaching that man’s "work" will be judged and tested by fire. He does not say man must suffer a temporal punishment in order to be purified from sin. The teaching here is about loss of rewards not punishment. Whatever works a man does for Christ and His glory will survive the fire and bring reward while whatever works are done for self glory and personal gain will be burned and lost.

Peter wrote: "...the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. (1 Pet. 1:7)

Peter is explicitly teaching about a man’s "faith" being tested by fire, not the purging of the man’s sin. It is faith that is more valuable than gold which has to reach a certain temperature to be purified. Peter uses gold as a metaphor for faith which grows stronger when it encounters the heat of certain trials and tribulations.

Jesus said: "I say to you, you shall not get out of there until you have paid the very last cent." (Luke 12:59)

In this passage Jesus is exhorting his listeners to get right with God the judge. Otherwise, when He comes they would be found guilty and condemned to pay an eternal punishment. When Jesus says they would not come out until they had paid the very last cent, He means they would never come out because it is impossible to satisfy the eternal debt for sin.

"And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come." (Matthew 12:32)

Jesus is saying the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. He then makes it emphatically clear what "never" means: neither in this age or the future age. For Catholics to suggest that sins can be forgiven in a future age after death violates Scripture.

Finally, Rome points to this verse for the necessity of purgatory: "nothing unclean...shall ever come into it (heaven.)" ( Rev. 21:27)

Rome interprets this verse correctly but incorrectly teaches that purgatory is what purifies and cleanses souls for entrance into heaven. The Scriptures conclusively and irrefutably teach that only Jesus and His shed blood can purify sin.

He (Jesus) has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach. (Col. 1:22)

When He (Jesus) had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high. (Hebrews 1:3.

He (Jesus) is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. (Hebrews 7:25)

(Jesus) who gave Himself for us, that He might... purify for Himself a people for His own possession. (Titus 2:14)

...the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. (1 John 1:7)

And according to the Law...all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. (Hebrews 9:22)

No man can by any means redeem his brother, or give to God a ransom for him, for the redemption of his soul is costly, and he should cease trying forever. (Psalm 49:7-8)

With its doctrine of purgatory, Rome not only denies the blood of Christ is sufficient and necessary to purge sin but it blasphemes the efficacy of Christ’s blood with this common funeral prayer:

O gentle Heart of Jesus, ever present in the Blessed Sacrament, ever consumed with burning love for the poor captive souls in Purgatory, have mercy on them. Be not severe in Your judgments, but let some drops of Your Precious Blood fall upon the devouring flames. And, Merciful Savior, send Your angels to conduct them to a place of refreshment, light and peace. Amen.

It is time for all who love the Lord Jesus Christ to stand on the authority of His word and renounce the doctrine of purgatory as a blasphemous substitution for His precious blood.



207 posted on 07/22/2003 11:38:05 PM PDT by razorbak
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To: TheCrusader
When a person dies, their eternal destiny is fixed:

Heb.9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

There is no passing from the place of fiery torment to heaven or vice versa:

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Our works will be made manifest at the time of judgement. But that judgement will determine our rewards, not our salvation. Our salvation is determined in this life:

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Rom.5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

Christ took our sin on Him, paid for it in full, and applied or imputed His righteousness to us. So that the believer is saved not based on his righteousness, but on Christ's righteousness alone. Romans chapter 3 tells us that there is "none righteous, no not one." And Isaiah tells us that "all of our righteousnesses are as filthy rags." [Isa.64:6] The only way a man is accounted righteous is by God graciously granting him Christ's righteousness. Then, that person who has been saved, and who has received the divine nature, displays in his life "good works" [see the book of James] that prove that he is truly a Christian.

Rom.4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; 8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin." When a believer dies, he goes immediately to be with the Lord: 2 Cor.5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

If a man dies as an unbeliever, he pays for his own sins in hell, and there is no other opportunity for him to be saved. If a man dies as a believer, His sins have been paid for by the substitutionary death of Christ, and the believer is secure for all of eternity. A man's character and destiny are irrevocably fixed at death:

Rev.22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Convincing people that their loved ones are half-way between heaven and hell, and their prays and their money can get them out sooner, is one of the most effective scams in history. Another is paying the Catholic church to forgive your sins in advance for the right price [indulgences]. St. Peter's Basilica was built in large part due to such fund raising tactics. As the Roman Catholic fund raiser, Tetzel, in Luther's day, would tell his hearers, concerning their loved ones:

As soon as the coin in the coffer rings,

the soul from purgatory springs.

208 posted on 07/22/2003 11:50:04 PM PDT by razorbak
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