Posted on 07/09/2003 12:08:32 PM PDT by PatrickHenry
Regarding my dispute with gore3000 about whether experiments that I cited from the 6th edition of The Origin of Species also appeared in the 1st edition:
gore3000 has graciously conceded, in his reply to a private email, that his search of the 1st edition text was hasty and missed relevant parallel passages. He has given me permission in a subsequent email to convey that concession here.
I accept gore3000's explanation, and I withdraw my claim that he was lying about having checked the text, or the result thereof.
Principal preceeding messages:
Gore (repeats) request for "an example of ONE (1) experiment in the Origins".
#3316
I reply with examples.
#3493
gore3000 suggests I used the 6th edition because my examples didn't appear in the 1st edition, and says he checked this.
#3698
I respond with a table laying out relevant passages from 6th and 1st editions side-by-side. I call gore3000 a liar.
#3813
gore3000 had not publicly responded to the preceeding message, but I reply to another freeper mistakenly thinking it was gore3000. I repeat and expand my charge that he was lying.
#3836
It appears to me from gore3000's email that a disagreement remains between us, but I consider it trivial. Nevertheless I should add that gore3000's concession was specifically with respect to the pidgeon experiments. He seems to take the same position as the freeper I mistakenly responded to in the last message linked, that the red clover fertilization experiments should not be said to be present in the 1st edition (presumably because of the differences I flagged in my table). I've already given my position on this in that last (mistakenly addressed) message.
I hope I've been fair to gore3000 with this summary, and request that he respond if I have not.
God of dysentery? ...I don't know about dysentery - bacteria with flagella could well cause that as well for all I know. But the article does mention this:... you are openly disgusting
live with it
Bacteria can move across surfaces in organized swarms, and quickly colonize a new food source such as your own much larger cells. When swarming, they often grow more flagella than usual and make cell-to-cell contacts with these flagella (37). Some bacteria also use their flagella to hang on to our cells as they try to break in and eat the cell contents (38. Girón JA, Torres AG, Freer E, Kaper JB. (2002). The flagella of enteropathogenic Escherichia coli mediate adherence to epithelial cells. Molecular Microbiology 44(2):361-379.).
This brings us to the dark side of design. Flagella participate in the cause of quite a few bacterial diseases, including diarrhea (38), ulcers and urinary tract infections (39. McGee DJ, Coker C, Testerman TL, Harro JM, Gibson SV, Mobley HL. (2002). The Helicobacter pylori flbA flagellar biosynthesis and regulatory gene is required for motility and virulence and modulates urease of H. pylori and Proteus mirabilis. Journal of Medical Microbiology 51(11):958-970.). If the Designer is directly responsible for flagella then he is implicated as a cause of human diseases. Diarrhea is no joke; it is a leading cause of infant death in some parts of the world. To make matters worse, one can hardly give the Designer credit for flagella without also crediting him with TTSS's in general (40). This puts the Designer solidly behind Bubonic plague (41, 42) and many other diseases (43). Happily, science makes such beliefs unnecessary.
Your hero Behe claims God the unembodied, unnamed Designer purposely designed the flagellum. This brings up the obvious question: Why? Why was God singularly interested in designing H. pylori, E. coli, et. al.?
You know, there is some off-and-on theoretical discussion being done over at ARN about Multiple-Designer Theory (MDT). This is where multiple designers are posited, each one designing organisms that are inherently in opposition to each other: flagellar bacteria vs. humans, wasps vs. caterpillars, infectious agents in general vs. hosts with immune systems, predators vs. prey, etc. Do you maybe subscribe to MDT to explain things like flagellar bacteria?
Hmm, they're coming closer. Perhaps if they allow the number of designers to approach infinity. The limit will be the Darwinian Unit of Selection!
I agree. It's not up to us to 'close the deal'. Just to open the door of opportunity, as we are called to do.
God of dysentery?
3,890 posted on 07/17/2003 2:16 PM CDT by js1138
From the looks of you evo's attachment to things anal, you ALL are merely taking license to sign on to js1138's disgusting God Bashing spree.
This subject is off-topic for this thread, so I suggest we let it drop. There must be gay marriage threads where this issue can play out in all its glory, and such would be the appropraite forum to continue this conversation. (Actually, I don't care about the issue all that much, and I probably wouldn't participate in such a thread.)
It has been fair.
No, i don't think they're a tabula rasa. They obviously have an innate capacity of making inductions and for intelligence. We aren't, after all, chimpanzees; we have something they lack. My point is that infants, and adults to a great extent do not make explicit assumptions; and that the implicit assumption one might detect in the law of induction (that, in general, under the same circumstances, observations tend to repeat themselves) is one that philosophers have tended in equal parts to ignore and reject. It is clear that intelligent living organisms (not just humans) tend to look for order even in random events. Note, however, that the experiments we've done to detect that tendency are scientific; they were not unearthed by philosophy.
I therefore maintain my postion that the philosophical basis for science, as for the logic that underlies everyday life, is negligible. The formalization of logic came after its first use; the formalization of mathematics came late in its development; modern philosophical analysis of science came long after modern science itself. I won't argue that philosophy is worthless (though I won't argue the contrary either); I will argue that it is irrelevant to science, and it is largely relevant only to philosophers.
I think we are motivated by SCRIPTURE: It comes right from Scripture.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
Col. 1:15-16 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Here's a great article on how these buggers work.
Here's one specifically on Shigella, the cause of dysentery and a relative of E. coli.
So back to ALS:
Your hero Behe claims God the unembodied, unnamed Designer purposely designed the flagellum. This brings up the obvious question: Why? Why was God singularly interested in designing H. pylori, E. coli, et. al.?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.