Police unable to locate barricaded man in burned home's rubble {raid on Michigan Militia Chaplin}

AP via MLive.com (Ann Arbor News) ^ | 7/9/2003 | JAMES PRICHARD

[Poohbah]

You'd hope so. I just hope no one else dies before they can bring him in. Hopefully, he'll negotiate to turn himself in in front of a camera crew. If he's that paranoid, the cameras should help...

Unless he decides that the cameras are concealing silenced weapons.

[Catspaw]

If he's that paranoid, the cameras should help...

This is a guy who wanted to sent up his own government, including its own judiciary.

I can't see him turning himself in, even with TV cameras, pleas from his family, you name it. It's going take an Eric Rudolph capture, a rookie cop finding him dumpster diving or something equally banal.

I just hope he doesn't endanger or involve anyone else.

[Catspaw]

I found the post with the information I referenced.

Militia members in other states have run into legal trouble for trying to set up their own judicial and banking systems. Woodring earlier this year ran a newspaper ad promoting the "Committee for a De Jure Township."

The ad said that the purpose of the meeting was to talk about organizing the township for "judicial and other purposes."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-backroom/942200/posts?page=2#2

[SCR1]

Sunday 20:00 July 6, 2003 - Officers from the Hesperia Police Department and the Newaygo County Sheriff's Department tried to serve him at his Dayton Township home with a felony arrest warrant. The warrant accuses Woodring of soliciting a minor for sex on July 1 at a gas station

Monday 16:00 July 7, 2003 After Woodring allegedly fired two shots from the house on Monday afternoon, the State Police Emergency Support Team stormed inside and then withdrew. Marshall, an eight-year state police veteran who served on the team, was shot at that time.

Update: Michigan State Police feel that Woodring had most likely left the house in Fremont prior to the attempted forced entry. Police stated that Woodring may have left as early as Monday afternoon. - This means that he may not have shot the Officer nor fired the two rounds that is claimed. (source: http://www.wzzm.com/news/newsdefaultpopoff.asp?cmd=view&articleid=7643 )

Tuesday 14:18 July 8, 2003 SRT fires flashbangs into house and it burns down.

Tuesday 16:18 July 8, 2003 Backpack found about 1 mile from home, supposedly belongs to Scott.

[Catspaw]

I watched the press conference on wood-tv. The State Police pio said the last time they talked to him was around 2:30 p.m. on Monday (I didn't take notes and as far as I know there's no transcript available, so I am relying on memory). The press conference is (or was) posted on the front page of the TV station's webpage. You'll need real player.

http://www.woodtv.com

[AAABEST]

The cops were doing their job, and doing it correctly. Woodering was wrong.

I agree, right up until the point they donned the military gear and forced the issue. Unless he was firing from the house, which is in this article but wasn't in yesterday's. Then again in this article they're saying it's possible (which means probable) that he was shot by his buddy.

They certainly weren't doing their job when they let the a$$hole get away.

My opinion, we should all shut the hell up (including myself) until we know the facts, which will probably never happen.

[SCR1]

I found another article that stated the DYnamic entry was at 3:30pm Monday. I don't think the 2:30 time could be accurate, as I don't see how he could slip out of the house one hour before a raid. I'm sure all eyes were on every part of that house.

I wonder if he had a cell phone or cordless phone where he could go mobil while still having communication?!?

[Catspaw]

I'll have to listen to the morning press conference again to listen for the time (even though--insert whine here--woodtv doesn't have fast forward). The pio said that was the last time they had communication with him (at least according to my memory) and it was prior to the entry on Monday.

The link you provided to the sister's press statement (no questions) was interesting. She said that the family had been communicating with Woodring via cell phone and ham and that the police changed the cell phone number and accidently knocked down the ham radio tower. Later in the press conference, the sister (the "official family spokesman") asked Woodring to surrender peacefully at least twice and said the family would support him.

[Catspaw]

Okay, I listened to most of the morning press conference. This is what the state police pio said:

In his statement he said, "he [Woodring} left the residence prior to the entry on Tuesday."

In response to a question he said that Woodring was "last spoken to prior to 2:30 on Monday."

The time gap seems to be between 2:30 p.m. on Monday and approximately 4 p.m. on Tuesday.

The question of whether Woodring was in the house during the entry on Monday wasn't asked--at least for as long as I listened to the press conference. The pio also didn't indicate if it was the police or a family member who had spoken to him on Monday.

[SCR1]

I still don't see how he could leave between 2:30 and 3:30 pm without being seen. I am begining towonder if he was there at all.

[SCR1]

I didn't missed them, I ignored them.

[Poohbah]

You must have missed the silly posts speculating about a "trap gun" that fired multiple shots in multiple directsions hitting two different officers.

I was under the impression that only one officer was hit, fatally so.

[xring]

"Police had been engaging in so-called "scare tactics" such as using armored personnel carriers to circle the house, as well as detonation devices to keep their suspect on edge. Helicopters hovered day and night for surveillance and intimidation. Police never ruled out the use of force."

Haven't read much debate about the similarities between the police tactics here and at other botched raids, what do you all think?

[Poohbah]

How about the similarity of tactics at the beginning to other attempts at executing felony arrest warrants where the perp just surrendered instead of barricading himself and holding his wife hostage?

[Catspaw]

If you watched his sister's statement, she said she and other family members (including his wife, who was inside the house with him) talked to him by cell phone and ham during the period from the time the wife left the house until the the police changed the phone number and knocked down the ham tower--that'd be prior to 2:30 p.m. or 3:30 p.m. on Monday.

If you don't think he was in there at all, that would presume that the sister, his wife and other family members lied to the police. If they did so, that'd mean a major league obstruction of justice charge (or charges) for them.

The only theory I'd posit is that he was able to get away during the chaos of the entry on Monday or shortly after that, but there's no definitive time that anyone can establish as to when he left the house.

[xring]

The guy fears his government, he's not going to simply hand himself over to the police. His wife was freed earlier, he was one misguided man in a house. Did the police REALLY NEED armored personnel carriers, helicopters, detonation devices, scare tactics and intimidation to get this guy?

Somewhat overkill, don't you think?

[Poohbah]

The guy fears his government, he's not going to simply hand himself over to the police. His wife was freed earlier, he was one misguided man in a house. Did the police REALLY NEED armored personnel carriers, helicopters, detonation devices, scare tactics and intimidation to get this guy?

How do you propose handling situations like this?

He's an accused sexual predator who also shoots at cops.

Would you invite him over for cookies and tea with your teenage daughter?

[xring]

My recommendation would be to keep him contained and wait him out. Even if it took a month, the Trooper would be alive and the house would still be standing.

[Poohbah]

My recommendation would be to keep him contained and wait him out. Even if it took a month, the Trooper would be alive and the house would still be standing.

OK, no problem. You can pay for the police overtime and for housing the miscreant's neighbors, who are being deprived of their right to the quiet enjoyment of their property by this guy, all out of your own pocket.

[xring]

Can't put a price on the Troopers life.