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To: RightWhale; Hank Kerchief
Whatever epiphenomena it might be, it is a level in itself but otherwise nothing special--totally natural and material.

Yes, RightWhale -- well, at least the "natural" part. However, Bauer's biological principle, which Grandpierre (rather humorously) refers to the as Aikido principle of life, is not consciousness of the epiphenomenal type, which is far-lower order, and essentially random. Epiphenomenal consciousness does not have a principle by which it can modify its own internal states, in sensitive adjustment to changes in exterior and interior conditions. There is nothing to show that epiphenomenal consciousness has a principle by which it can grasp that it is alive as an organic biological whole, or develop a sense of identity (of experience of itself), let alone self-identity.

Epiphenomenal consciousness may be a feature of inorganic nature. But for biological life, it appears woefully insufficient to explain the consciousness of the higher forms of biological life, through animals and up to man. It has been noted that even E. coli appears to generate a kind of primitive "brain" organization. By what principle can this be an epiphenomenal activity? It appears to me to be distinctly a phenomenal one. Here we see the tension between the structural and the phenomenological -- "the integrative science" of these three theorists.

65 posted on 07/06/2003 9:20:57 AM PDT by betty boop (We can have either human dignity or unfettered liberty, but not both. -- Dean Clancy)
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To: betty boop
Epiphenomenal consciousness does not have a principle by which it can modify its own internal states, in sensitive adjustment to changes in exterior and interior conditions. There is nothing to show that epiphenomenal consciousness has a principle by which it can grasp that it is alive as an organic biological whole, or develop a sense of identity (of experience of itself), let alone self-identity. Epiphenomenal consciousness may be a feature of inorganic nature. But for biological life, it appears woefully insufficient to explain the consciousness of the higher forms of biological life, through animals and up to man.

Very well, and only reasonably (and intuitively) put.

71 posted on 07/06/2003 9:55:54 AM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love." - No I don't look anything like her but I do like to hear "Unspun w/ AnnaZ")
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To: betty boop
It's not easy to distinguish the action of interior phenomena [primordial behavior] from chemical necessity in DNA or interstellar dust. The same laws have to apply in some form to all matter, from the simplest sub-atomic particle to the largest galactic cluster, and that must include everything matter does since clearly life and consciousness are happening as a component of our galaxy--otherwise we cannot know anything.
78 posted on 07/06/2003 11:20:53 AM PDT by RightWhale (gazing at shadows)
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