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To: betty boop
"boris, causality is "implied," once one starts talking about a "Fundamental Consciousness." IMHO at least."

But Determinism and Causality are fundamentally connected. If you really believe causality is the case--that every event has a cause or causes and nothing else you have determinism. With determinism you have no free will.

As I mentioned, I do not see (as others do) rescue in quantum effects. Those who appeal to quantum effects to 'rescue' free will are like drowning men who will grab anything they think will help them float.

But once you introduce influences external to space/time, or "fundamental consciousness" or Platonic ideals...you can imagine a world where both causality and consciousness can coexist in an uneasy harmony.

Funny that you should say "Run to Buddhism". Buddhism repeatedly refers to "taking refuge" in Buddhism. Refuge from what? From "suffering" or "anguish"--which is principally the essential angst of human knowledge that all of us eventually die. Attachments to things is the 'source' of anguish; letting go of such attachments is the balm. Hey, I'm not a monk; I just read a lot.

Now it so happens that I am in poor health (diabetic peripheral neuropathy among other things) and I would love to end that suffering. It appears I must detach from the physical world completely (die) to attain this; I am not anxious (yet) to take such refuge, although the thought has crossed my mind...

--Boris

28 posted on 07/05/2003 8:05:08 PM PDT by boris
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To: boris
But Determinism and Causality are fundamentally connected. If you really believe causality is the case--that every event has a cause or causes and nothing else you have determinism. With determinism you have no free will.

Boris, you raise so many points to which I personally resonate, I strongly doubt I can reply to all of them tonight. It's late, and it's time for bed.

But we can begin with the italics, above. Have you ever seen the Mandelbrot set? I mean, the graphical representation of same, which I've seen in a couple different books by now?

The way I see it, determinism and causality are surely "fundamentally connected," just as you have said. I gather that you understand this as something being imposed on one. But the point of what Grandpierre is doing here, which seems to be supported by Kafatos and Draganescu, is that you have justification for supposing that you are equally the creative "doer," as you are the one being "done to." For the nature of the Fundamental Consciousness and your own natural consciousness are not fundamentally unalike. Indeed, they so resemble each other, that many people today still believe that God made man "in His image." Just think about that. The implications are staggering. Science has never demonstrated that as an ill-founded supposition....

What these guys are saying is the physical laws hold completely within the stuctural (physical/electromagnetic/chemical -- material) sphere. This is the "structural side" of the integrative science they propose.

Regarding the phenomenal side, however, they seem agreed that this dimension of human existence and experience is subject to different laws entirely. And free will has traction and purchase in that domain.

This is not an "either/or" situation/decision. It is the description of the "living tension" in which human life is lived -- with all its reason and free will, and the choices that follow from same.

37 posted on 07/05/2003 8:55:14 PM PDT by betty boop (We can have either human dignity or unfettered liberty, but not both. -- Dean Clancy)
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To: boris
Now it so happens that I am in poor health (diabetic peripheral neuropathy among other things) and I would love to end that suffering. It appears I must detach from the physical world completely (die) to attain this; I am not anxious (yet) to take such refuge, although the thought has crossed my mind...

I was anxious for that same thing once, too (when I held that nine all I could see was my mama's eyes). But I persevered. You are doing the same.

Why stop now?

49 posted on 07/06/2003 12:34:40 AM PDT by rdb3 (Nerve-racking since 0413hrs on XII-XXII-MCMLXXI)
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