Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: betty boop
how could primordial matter that doesn't "know anything" (because it hadn't yet had the time to "organize" a brain state of which consciousness could be the by-product) "organize itself" into anything at all, let alone logic and laws?

Do we know that? For example, I am reasonably sure that my co-workers are unconscious most of the day. Nevertheless, consciousness is latent in their atomic structure. Atomic structure is amazingly uniform: there may be a few thousand possibilities, from hydrogen on up through all possible isotopes. We create laws as concepts to form concepts of matter, but atoms may or may not know of laws and they certainly don't act according to laws. Is there a law that describes infinite possibilities of combination, that describes everything from paramecia to galactic clusters? Atoms, in their supposed ignorance, create all these things. Who is to say atoms are unconscious? Who is to say the brain is the seat of consciousness? Sure, it's a popular thing to say, but a cop-out: begs the question.

236 posted on 07/08/2003 9:22:57 AM PDT by RightWhale (gazing at shadows)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 234 | View Replies ]


To: RightWhale; Hank Kerchief; Alamo-Girl; unspun; js1138
Who is to say atoms are unconscious? Who is to say the brain is the seat of consciousness? Sure, it's a popular thing to say, but a cop-out: begs the question.

Who is to say atoms are unconscious? Far be it from me to say so, RW!

Who is to say the brain is the seat of consciousness? Well again, not me, RW. But people like Lewontin, Dawkins, Hawking, Pinker, Dennett, et al., say that. Not to mention Ayn Rand.

Of course to say as much begs the question. That was my point.

237 posted on 07/08/2003 9:31:26 AM PDT by betty boop (We can have either human dignity or unfettered liberty, but not both. -- Dean Clancy)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 236 | View Replies ]

To: RightWhale
Atomic structure is amazingly uniform: there may be a few thousand possibilities, from hydrogen on up through all possible isotopes. We create laws as concepts to form concepts of matter, but atoms may or may not know of laws and they certainly don't act according to laws.

It seems to me the amazing uniformity you note in atomic structure (i.e., the limited range of its possible expression, seemingly limited to a "few thousand possibilities" in terms of particles) has a possible analogue in the uniformity of the physical laws -- which Grandpierre suggests are mainly about conservation, and which all seem to go by the variational principle a/k/a the "principle of least action." Grandpierre notes in the cited article that the general tendency of the physical laws is to bring about a state of physical equilibrium.

Interestingly, he says that from the standpoint of a living organism, "physical equilibrium" is tantamount to "heat death" -- that it is the "death direction" of biological life that the organism must somehow overcome to maintain its own existence. I thought that was a fascinating insight. What do you make of it, RW?

244 posted on 07/08/2003 11:46:59 AM PDT by betty boop (We can have either human dignity or unfettered liberty, but not both. -- Dean Clancy)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 236 | View Replies ]

To: RightWhale
We create laws as concepts to form concepts of matter, but atoms may or may not know of laws and they certainly don't act according to laws.

That is just plain false. Matter does behave according to scientific laws. There are tons of them out there explaining the behavior of material things and the reason why we can be typoing to each other accross who knows how many miles is because those laws have enabled us to make the things which allow this communication. These laws are tested on a daily basis and they have been found to be true in numerous wasy. To say what you are saying is to say that science and all that has been built upon its fruits is just a hallucination.

I don't think you will convince many with such a viewpoint.

303 posted on 07/08/2003 8:23:26 PM PDT by gore3000 (Intelligent people do not believe in evolution.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 236 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson