"Integrative Science”: The Death-Knell of Scientific Materialism?

various ^ | various | vanity with much help

[Alamo-Girl]

I didn't have any problems logging in and was able to call up your profile page (betty boop) without any problem. It sounds like some kind of software anamoly.

[lockeliberty]

Have we seen the "deathknell" of this thread?

I was hoping to find out if I was conscious or not. ;-)

[unspun]

I was hoping to find out if I was conscious or not. ;-)

I'm about to go apparently otherwise, for the night.

[unspun]

I have a hunch we'll be hearing more from the Hun. You might be interested in a quick visit here, in the meanwhile.

[B-Chan]

The bedrock principle of scientific materialism is that of observation. Only those phenomena that can be observed via the senses (using various apparatus, etc.) are considered to actually exist.

But, as Descartes points out, one's own consciousness cannot be observed via the senses. With what "eye" does one see a dream? With what "ear" does one hear oneself think? Descartes realized that consciousness is not perceived but experienced -- directly and without recourse to the senses -- and therefore was not subject to the scientific process. He posited the now-famous Cartesian dualistic approach to the fundamental question of human existence, the well-known theory of mind/body duality: "I" am that entity that hears itself think (and in so doing objectfies the body). Cogito ergo sum.

It is unscientfic to state that consciousness is an epiphenomenon of brain electrochemical activity, or anything else. Consciousness as such (as opposed to mere brain electronchemistry) has never been observed, only experienced, and thus is by definition outside the scope of scientific analysis.

[betty boop]

Have we seen the "deathknell" of this thread?

I hope not, lockeliberty. I'd expected at least a bit more. Though it's true the silence is deafening....

[unspun]

I'd expected at least a bit more. Though it's true the silence is deafening....

Ok betty Jean, what are Grandpierre's views on "spirituality" (Oprah notwithstanding) anyway? What is "out there" in is beliefs, or in his attempts at applying any bits of the scientific method and reason thereupon? Any lowdown here?

[unspun]

Well recalled and wrought.....

[B-Chan]

Thanks. I'm no Cartesian, but you gotta admire the guy. He took skepticism as far as it would go -- and found Yahweh staring him in the face.

[RightWhale]

Consciousness as such (as opposed to mere brain electronchemistry) has never been observed, only experienced, and thus is by definition outside the scope of scientific analysis.

Yet, consciousness obviously comes with the observable as a natural part of the world. Why do we persist in treating man as something apart from nature? It's insanity.

[cornelis]

"By Zeus," said BB, "If one were to say that the structure of mathematics may possibly shed light on the structure of the universe, do we have a metaphysical statement?

You, answered Socrates, afraid, as they say, of your own shadow and your inexperience, would cling to the safety of your own hypothesis and give that answer. If someone then attacked your hypothesis itself, you would ignore him and would not answer until you had examined whether the consequences that follow from it agree with one another or contradict one another. And when you must give an account of your hypothesis itself you will proceed in the same way: you will assume another hypothesis, the one which seems to you best of the higher ones until you come to something acceptable, but you will not jumble the two as the debaters do by discussing the hypothesis and its consequences at the same time, if you wish to discover any truth. This they do not discuss at all nor give any thought to, but their wisdom enables them to mix everything up and yet to be pleased with themselves, but if you are a philosopher I think you will do as I say.

What you say is very true, said BB and AG together.

[betty boop]

Ok betty Jean, what are Grandpierre's views on "spirituality?"

In Grandpierre's scientific papers that I've read so far, I haven't seen anything that could be described as a view or a theory of "spirituality," Brother A. He does speak of consciousness, however, in terms of such things as awareness, reason, logic, intelligence, sentience, freedom to select from among alternative courses of action, and the ability to self-initiate action/behavior.

Spirituality is something beyond these things, though it is something of which we can become conscious. But I don't think is a scientific question, and I don't have any reason to think that spirituality as such is a concern of Grandpierre's scientific work.

[unspun]

Spirituality is something beyond these things, though it is something of which we can become conscious. But I don't think is a scientific question, and I don't have any reason to think that spirituality as such is a concern of Grandpierre's scientific work.

Or, spirituality is something that is inclusive of, and beyond these things.

Thanks -- so at least in his publishing persona, he's attempting to tow the line regarding science and... would you say propositional reason, as he deems it most fitting to the theme of imagining and practicing science, quasi-science, and para-science?

[lockeliberty]

He does speak of consciousness, however, in terms of such things as awareness,...

Here's probably a stupid question.

Humans are said to have a 'token-reflexive' dimension to their mind such that I am aware of the contents of my own mind but also aware of them as the contents of my own mind where the latter awareness is not reducible to the former. Can we say this sort of awareness is unique to human animal?

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your post!

Have we seen the "deathknell" of this thread?

Not in the least! It has taken some time for the interest levels to rise and the subject is being discussed actively on the Darwin in a Box thread. Both this thread, and the copy of the article on DesignedUniverse.com are linked over there in several places.

I'm sure the ones most interested in the subject will be coming back here with more information and arguments.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank y'all so much for exploring the spirituality issue with regard to Grandpierre! I imagine it was of some concern to the Lurkers. Kudos and hugs!

[SunkenCiv]

seen it?

[SunkenCiv]

A Blast from the Past, from 2003, possibly of interest.

[southland]

bttt

[grey_whiskers]

wtf? ;-)