TESTIMONY OF PAUL F. HACKOMr. Jones. How long have you been employed at General Electric?
Mr. Hacko. I have credited service of approximately eighteen or nineteen years.
Mr. Jones. Are you a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Hacko. First of all, before I answer any questions, I believe this committee has violated the Constitution's, the rights guaranteed under the Constitution of the United States, and they have sworn to uphold the Constitution of the United States, implemented by the Bill of Rights, and this committee has stepped into the judiciary processes of law which are guaranteed.
The Chairman. Before we hear any speech from you, you will answer the question.
Mr. Jones. Are you a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Hacko. I now use my First, Fifth, and implemented by the Fourth Amendment . . .
The Chairman. I am not arguing with you; you are here without a lawyer and I am trying to advise you----
Mr. Hacko. I think I can well represent myself.
The Chairman. Look, don't talk while I am talking.
Mr. Hacko. Proceed.
The Chairman. You are here without a lawyer and I intend to advise you of the grounds upon which you are ordered to answer so that at some future legal proceeding you will not be able to claim ignorance of the law. You will not be able to claim you did not know what was going on. I am going to ask you certain questions about your Communist connections, and I will ask you about espionage.
Mr. Hacko. I object, the objection referring to Communist grounds. You are stating that I am, and I object.
The Chairman. Look, mister, you are going to act like a gentleman.
Mr. Hacko. I am a gentleman, and I believe you are not a gentleman.
The Chairman. And you will be quiet while I am asking the questions.
Mr. Hacko. I will leave.
The Chairman. Marshall, will you stop this witness?
Mr. Hacko. You were going to bring me to Albany at eight o'clock, subpoenaing a man two hours beforetime and he has to go clear to Groversville.
The Chairman. If you want further time to get counsel and prepare to testify, I will give you additional time. If you feel that you are not ready to testify----
Mr. Hacko. You are taking away my Thanksgiving turkey.
The Chairman. Do you want additional time?
Mr. Hacko. I don't want anything from you. Maybe Mr. Schine does . . .
The Chairman. Do you think that someone who gives information to the FBI about traitors is a rat?
Mr. Hacko. I will place it this way: There are certain things which certain committees should not know and which members in this chamber perhaps do not even know, and you force a man--you cannot even conduct something between yourselves and anybody else. Sure they should be told of any underground or any method that would down the principles of the United States or do anything harmful or detrimental to this country. But here is a person, I don't know whether I can trust this one, or that person, or anyone here.
The Chairman. You have been asked some very simple questions, and you can answer them. I am going to let you talk as much as you want to.
Mr. Hacko. Inasmuch as the honorable senator asks me, I will state them publicly and openly.
The Chairman. This young man has got to take down everything we say, and you understand that. He cannot do that if we are both talking at the same time. I am going to let you talk as much as you want to, but don't interrupt me when I am talking.
Now I have asked you a very simple question. Are you willing to talk to the FBI and to give them any information which you have about Communists?
Mr. Hacko. I refuse to answer.
The Chairman. On what grounds?
Mr. Hacko. Under this form of questioning . . .
The Chairman. Well, you just got through telling me this is the work of the FBI and not of this committee. If it is the work of the FBI, you see they cannot do it. They cannot do the work unless people who know about Communists will work with them. We have the sworn testimony here that you are a member and have been a member of the Communist party. I am asking you a very simple question.
Mr. Hacko. That is a lie.
The Chairman. If we have an FBI agent call on you, will you give them whatever information you have?
Mr. Hacko. What you have stated is a lie.
The Chairman. You mean whoever said you were a Communist?
Mr. Hacko. That is right; that is a lie.
The Chairman. He is lying?
Mr. Hacko. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Well, once you said you were a stoolpigeon. Did you go through the motions of being a Communist to help out some intelligence agency, the FBI, or some other thing?
Mr. Hacko. You make me sick. I think that you are doing more harm to the government of the United States than anyone is.
The Chairman. Can you get over being sick enough to answer the question?
Mr. Hacko. I haven't even had breakfast, and I don't think I can. Now you can hold me for contempt, which I will allow you to, but I am walking out of here.
The Chairman. You are not walking out of here.
Mr. Hacko. Hold me for contempt.
The Chairman. You are not walking out.
Mr. Hacko. I refuse to answer any questions. I use the First and Fifth Amendments, supplemented by the Fourteenth Amendment.
The Chairman. Are you an espionage agent of the Communist party as of today?
[No answer.]
The Chairman. You will have the record show that the witness sits mute and refuses to answer that question.
Mr. Hacko. I use the First, Fifth, and Fourteenth Amendments. My acquaintances are none of your business. I have stated very plainly that I do not condone any action of any organization that would in any way be harmful to the United States of America.
The Chairman. Are you an espionage agent as of today?
Mr. Hacko. Again I will use my First, Fifth, and Fourteenth Amendments.
The Chairman. Has the Communist party ever ordered you to obtain information about the work at GE?
Mr. Hacko. Objection. I didn't say that. What do you mean, Communist party? Who said I belonged to the Communist party?
The Chairman. The question is, has the Communist party ever ordered you to obtain information about the work going on at GE?
Mr. Hacko. I don't know who belongs to the Communist party or who does not, or who is a Communist and who is not.
The Chairman. You mean you don't know whether they have ever ordered you to do that?
Mr. Hacko. What do you mean, ordered? I told you that I don't know anything about their meetings or anything.
The Chairman. You mean you don't know whether they have ever ordered you to get information?
Mr. Hacko. Why don't you stop that line?
The Chairman. It is a very simple question. If they did not----
Mr. Hacko. It is not very simple, what you are talking about. I haven't done anything harmful in any way or manner or order. What do you mean, orders? I have been under your orders.
All you need is a swastika and a helmet, and you will be right in your place.
The Chairman. Look, mister, we have got a very important job to do here, and it is not pleasant to sit here and listen to people like you rant and rave. We are going to do it, get information, and you are giving us information by your attitude and by your raving and ranting. I have seen them do that before. I will see it again. I am going to ask you questions-- and they are very simple questions--and you can refuse to answer, and you can give all of the speeches you want.
The question is, has the Communist party ever ordered you to get information as to the work going on at GE and to turn that information over to them?
Mr. Hacko. I have answered that a dozen times, and I don't know what you are talking about.
The Chairman. What is the answer, yes or no; or do you refuse to answer?
Mr. Hacko. What party? Who?
The Chairman. The Communist party.
Mr. Hacko. I don't know anything about that. I don't know anything. I don't even know what you are talking about. You know I wouldn't be here; I would be getting paid $5,000, maybe, like the RCA money--who hold the secrets on your investigation--when Sarnoff was chairman and he sold the patented rights.
The Chairman. Do you understand the question?
Mr. Hacko. I don't understand the question.
The Chairman. I will ask it over again.
Did the Communist party ever order you to get information for them?
Mr. Hacko. I don't understand what you are talking about.
The Chairman. Was there anyone known to you as a member of the Communist party who ever ordered you to get information for him?
Mr. Hacko. That is a ridiculous question, and I don't know of any Communists or anything that you are talking about.
The Chairman. What is your answer to that question?
Mr. Hacko. I don't know anything. I don't know what you are talking about. I don't know. If you ask me if anybody, if a Republican or a Democrat has asked me, I would say no, no Republican or Democrat or American Labor party member--and I don't know anybody else; those are the people I know. I cannot conceive--I can conceive of somebody that is in a department, in a government department, being asked to give information.
The Chairman. You have said that no Republican or no Democrat or no American Labor party man ever asked you to get information for them. Let us go on one step further. Did the Communist party ever order you to give them information?
Mr. Hacko. I don't know of any of these people. I have long advocated that the party be placed upon the ballot and then we shall know all of the names and all of the things that they do, and it will be election by the ballot and not by the vote.
The Chairman. Will you read the question to the witness.
[The pending question was read by the reporter.]
Mr. Hacko. I can't conceive of anybody ever asking me to give information--and they haven't--and I don't know of what people you people are talking about or what the honorable senator is implying by the question. I don't know if he is trying to implicate me in anything, which I think I very definitely stated from the start.
The Chairman. You will be implicated if you commit perjury here. I am asking you a simple question. Did anyone known to you to be a member of the Communist party ever ask you to get information for them?
Mr. Hacko. No, sir, they did not, so help me God.
The Chairman. It took a long time to get that.