NASA E-Mails Show 'No Concern' About Foam

Miami Herald ^ | 6/30/03 | Ted Bridis - AP

[X-FID]

Coming foam you, I am also refoaming my opinion!

[X-FID]

Coming foam you, I am also refoaming my opinion!

[DoughtyOne]

The is turning into the FO AM Rolf Tournament.

[isthisnickcool]

There is a lot than can go wrong on a shuttle, and the chances something else would go wrong in the identical location with the identical results are a lot more astronomical than you can get to from low Earth orbit.

A couple of flights back when the foam sloughed off and wacked one of the SRB's so hard it dented the heck out of it some people (supposedly) tried to convince the skipper of that flight to call for grounding the system. Didn't work.

This is not Kris Kraft's NASA anymore. That's for sure.

[bonesmccoy]

Please see how our thread developed. I posted a thread on this issue on February 3rd, 2003.

It has taken NASA a half year to complete the process we suggested in the first 48 hours of the disaster.

Not to crow too much, but if you review the threads created contemporaneously to the events; I was the first to note that the crew was lost.

This entire disaster was clearly related to the TPS. The only issue was to find the cause of the TPS failure. Every engineer on the shuttle program knows what a TPS failure mode looks like and it is precisely the type of pattern seen on reentry of the ill-fated Columbia flight.

The new NASA engineers are too young to know why the design limits are in place. Many probably were not even born when the program was conceived.

This thread http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/835531/posts proves my point.

[DoughtyOne]

This was so cut and dried after the failure.  It would have been one thing for NASA to state they weren't positive if it was the foam, they needed to confirm it.  But they poo pooed the foam theory and even proposed meteorite hit to blur the issue.

They lied to the crew.  They lied to us.  

What bothers me more than anything else is that seven people died through negligence and it appears everyone may walk on this as if nothing more than a stubbed toe was incurred.  It's disgusting.  I'll NEVER trust NASA again.  It's over for me.

NASA now stands for incompetence, complacency, obstruction, malfeasance, and I guess criminality.  They informed the crew to get by an interview.  At that point they didn't say we're checking his out.  They said, there's no problem.  This was a vicious lie.

They had to get by the interview and they didn't want the crew to act concerned, so they lied to them.  Then they never went back and corrected the lie.  Days later the crew was burnt to a crisp.

They told the public there was no chance to save the crew even if they knew right away.  Then the Director of NASA said that wasn't true.

As you said, we've been adhead of them every step of the way.  I state here and now, there is criminality involved here and I predict some people are going to see prison time over this.

[bonesmccoy]

sadly, i agree that there is criminal neglect here. However, in each of the fatal space mission accidents (Apollo 1 and STS-51-L) no criminal charges were ever filed. In fact, Betty Grissom was the only individual to prosecute a civil case against North American Rockwell for the poor hatch design in the original Apollo crew module. Instead of NASA embracing her and her family, she was ostracized from the rest of the community. The crew families of STS-51-L never pushed criminal or civil penalties. These crew families are unlikely to do so also. It's just not the behavior pattern of the families.

OTOH, the Administration is the real driver in this situation. If the POTUS wants to improve or revamp NASA, it will happen. It's just that the WH doesn't really focus any attention on NASA. It's a sideshow to this admin.

[snopercod]

I don't think Stitch lied. According to all the information he had, there was no problem. It's just that the folks in Houston live in their own little world, and really don't get out very often.

There was plenty of concern at KSC, but as far as Houston is concerned, the people at KSC are just a bunch of inbred redneck crackers.

It was Greg Katnick, KSC engineer, who raised the problem with the foam several years ago. He was ignored.

It was someone at KSC, not Houston, who thought it was important enough to buck the chain of command to request on-orbit photos from the DoD. Someone in NASA - probably Houston - who quashed that request.

[DoughtyOne]

Thanks for the comments. I get a little worked up over this. I expect more than this from NASA or any top level organization. I guess that's why I get so fired up.

[DoughtyOne]

I can see them withholding comment on the foam strike to the crew, early on.  No dishonesty would be attributed.
I can see them telling the crew and saying they weren't sure about the significance yet, but we're checking.  No dishonesty would be attributed.
I can see them telling the crew and saying, it doesn't look like any negative impact from here yet, but we're looking.  No dishonesty woule be attributed.
I can't see telling them there was no concern at all.  

[DoughtyOne]

Thanks for your comments regarding the different environments at NASA.

[snopercod]

As a former test conductor, I was never expected to personally know everything. But I was expected to know whom to ask.

Occasionally, I would get some bad information and pass it up the line as if it were true. Oops. So I learned early on how to cover my a$$.

I would sometimes couch my pronouncements in weasel-words. When somebody would ask me, "When will such-and-such be ready?, I would respond with something like, "I'm being told that whatever-it-was will be ready by 14:30", or "The schedule says 14:30".

Also, we were very careful what we said on the recorded net. Lot's of times we would say one thing on the net for public consumption, then call the person on the telephone and give them the real story. There were a whole bunch of people around KSC that had nothing better to do than pull voice tapes and look for violations of test discipline.

There was nothing sinister about all this, and nobody would knowingly pass on incorrect information. There was just a lot of uncertainty and many times we just didn't know the answer.

I don't fault the guys at Houston for telling the Astronauts that there was nothing to worry about. That was true as far as they knew. Everyone there told them so. I do fault the insular culture there that leads them to believe they know everything and nobody else knows anything.

The engineers and flight controllers in Houston just do not speak to the experts at KSC. It's beneath them, apparently.

[DoughtyOne]

Thank you for your insight on this. I appreciate the comments.

[aristeides]

Ping.

[TLBSHOW]

BUMP

[fooman]

Thanks.

[XBob]

27 - "Betty Grissom was the only individual to prosecute a civil case against North American Rockwell for the poor hatch design in the original Apollo crew module"

Actually, this is not quite right, exactly. There was a problem with hatch design (too slow to escape in an emergency), but the real problem was NASA's specification for an oxygen environment in the capsule. Without the O2 environment, the fire (burning wire insulation) wouldn't have happened. With a faster escape door, the astronauts could perhaps have escaped, perhaps not.

However, Rockwell purposely 'ate it' to 'save NASA swimming pools'. As a result, their reward was the shuttle contract, and billions of sub and continuing contracts from NASA.

Expensive swimming pools win every time !!!! That is NASA's mission.

[snopercod]

Kinda' like Sandra Day O'Conner ruling like she did in exchange for a democRAT-proof nomination for Chief Justice.

[bonesmccoy]

107 CDR: ...thanks for the super work! We appreciate it.

[bvw]

Those who are about to die, salute you, the NASA Managers!

"Thanks a million, Steve! And thanks for the great work on your part.

Thanks Jeff! And thanks for the super work! We appreciate it."

All Hail Federal Sinecures! Huzzah! Hurrah!