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To: exmarine; betty boop; Alamo-Girl; Polycarp; logos; TheRightGuy; cherry_bomb88; BillyBoy; Dataman; ..
"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep forever." -Thomas Jefferson

About our massively studied Christian experiment in a Republic, the tactics for the political corruptives and destroyers has been pretty basic:

1. Shift the attention away from the great, great numbers of Christian planners of our republic, and instead onto John Locke and at the time of the Revolution, Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine.

2. Mislabel Locke and Jefferson as "Deists" like Paine.

3. Equate Deism with modern Humanism.

4. Proclaim Marxist dogma as advances of the Humanism of America's founders.

Adams and Jefferson gave credit for the conception of the American Republic to people such as these. Adams listed Algernon Sidney before John Locke (who was a devout if somewhat heretical Christian, yet displaying unheretical wisdom beyond most of today's Christians in certain aspects, including the requirement of freedom from religious control, in his treatise "The Reasonablness of Christianity"). Sidney did not find it necessary to formulate a government out of a twisty double negative (constraint of people only to keep them from violating others' "natural rights") preferring to pull that slip-knot and expound upon the foment of Christian virtue as a fundamental reason for the self-governance of a free people. (Whoodathunkit?)

Naturally -- and supernaturally, he was right. However, he was executed for it. We should heed such wisdom, before we suffer such fates, ourselves. Time for a bringing people (kicking and screaming, as necessary) back down through our roots. That kidn of an inversion, I'm all for.

u

30 posted on 07/02/2003 11:01:32 AM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: unspun
Mislabel Locke and Jefferson as "Deists" like Paine.

Jafferson must have "mislabeled" himself. He professed to being a Deist.

33 posted on 07/02/2003 11:50:07 AM PDT by tdadams
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To: unspun
When the founders spoke of "nature's law and nature's God," they were not referring to the libertarian type of natural law as understood today. The natural law they spoke of came from Christian philosophers such as Grotius and Puffendorf and the context was purely Christian. It was later than natural law was changed to mean something else.
38 posted on 07/02/2003 1:04:08 PM PDT by exmarine
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To: unspun
Jefferson was a deist.

Revising history is a tool of the left.

46 posted on 07/02/2003 5:03:01 PM PDT by DAnconia55 (Taxation is a greater threat to the family than gay sex is.)
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To: longtermmemmory; Paleo Conservative; Weimdog; gitmo; breakem; Kudsman; cherry_bomb88; bondserv; ...
About our massively studied Christian experiment in a Republic, the tactics for the political corruptives and destroyers has been pretty basic:

Well that didn't quite get a rush of responses.... ;-`  Let me try one more bit of postitng:

Those intent on destroying the American Republic use many creative techniques to make govenment's influence a bad influence, an influence that steals our freedom, either in a statist sooner or a corrupted libertarian later, and degrades our "civic virtue" as bb has well mentioned and the "general Welfare," as the Constitution declares.

Moreover, those intent upon pulling us from our roots love the idea that while they are free to do whatever they can, we conservatives are duped to believe that our governmental influence must be restricted to the Lockian (and Rousseauian) double negative: that government's only legitimate role is to compel us not to violate another's rights (a false ideal that the American Republic has never managed to attain).

However, the man John Adams cites first among those offering a detailed rationalie for a well balanced republic (and whom Jefferson also ceded) Algernon Sidney, believed in God's intent goodness (virtue) and God's ability to be good through people, rather than God naturalistically leaving it only for us to keep from making life even worse by our official capacities.  Sidney stated the following, for example:

"[I]f governments arise from the consent of men, and are instituted by men according to their own inclinations, they did therein seek their own good; for the will is ever drawn by some real good, or the appearance of it. This is that which man seeks by all the regular or irregular motions of his mind. Reason and passion, virtue and vice, do herein concur.... A people therefore that sets up [government does it so]...that it may be well with themselves and their posterity."

"Nothing can be called stable, that is not so in principle and practice, in which respect human nature is not well capable of stability; but the utmost deviation from it that can be imagined, is, when such an error is laid for a foundation as can never be corrected. All will confess, that if there be any stability in man, it must be in wisdom and virtue, and in those actions that are thereby directed; for in weakness, folly, and madness, there can be none. The stability therefore that we seek, in relation to the exercise of civil and military powers, can never be found, unless care be taken, that such as shall exercise those powers, be endowed with the qualities that should make them stable."

"Virtue is the dictate of reason, or the remains of divine light, by which men are made beneficent and beneficial to each other. Religion proceeds from the same spring; and tends to the same end; and the good of mankind so entirely depends upon the two, that no people ever enjoyed anything worth desiring that was not the product of them; and whatsoever any have suffered that [which] deserves to be abhorred and feared, has proceeded either from the defect of these, or the wrath of God against them. If any [leader] therefore has been an enemy to virtue and religion, he must also have been an enemy to mankind, and most especially to the people under him."

"But if all depended upon the will of a man, the worst would be often the most safe, and the best in the greatest hazard; slaves would be often advanced, the good and the brave scorned and neglected. The most generous nations have above all things sought to avoid this evil: and the virtue, wisdom, and generosity of each, may be discerned by the right fixing of the rule, that must be the guide of every man's life, and so continue their magistracy, that it may be duly observed. Such as have attained to this perfection, have always flourished in virtue and happiness: they are, as Aristotle says, governed by God, rather than by men, whilst those who subjected themselves to the will of a man, were governed by a beast."

Sidney demonstrated man's most pivotal guiding principles in his relationships with his fellow man: love, faith, and hope.  Since these are man's guiding principles, of course they must be applied in the means of self governance of a free people.  This means that we are free to be proactive instead of merely reactive.  (We are free to be so, as conservatives  -- classic liberals -- based upon what will allow us in their eventual result, the greatest, good freedom.)  It also means that our public influence may be used to actively support the dynamics of self-reliance and our private interdependencies, especially in family and institutions of faith, and in private enterprise.  We can and should and must use our influence in government not just to kick people's doors in, but only when we absolutely have to -- and not to just send ambulances and apply prisons and morgues, after the fact of evil behavior.  

We must devise and institute ways of instilling and supporting virture in our culture, including the use of government and by this pull out of the sprung trap of a false necessity to be, as government, either impotently shrugging and hands-off, or in the other extreme overly forceful and reactive.

57 posted on 07/03/2003 10:08:34 AM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love." -- btw, I don't look anything like AnnaZ, but I do listen on RadioFR.)
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