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To: yonif
God's promises to Israel were meant for the Israel of faith, not to the physical Israel. In the Old Testament period the people of Israel were set aside and kept together as God's special people by the Mosaic Law so that the promises could be kept alive until Christ would come. For this reason, Jesus said, "Salvation is from the Jews" (John 4:22). All the promises given to Israel were promises attached to Christ and inseparable from him.

Individual Jews cannot obtain the spiritual benefits of the promises apart from faith in Christ. The nation cannot benefit from the promises if it rejects Christ, to whom the promises were attached. The present nation of Israel does not have a claim on these promises because it does not hold to Christ. Paul discusses this at length in Romans and Galatians.

The promises to Israel do not belong to anyone who is born into the physical nation of Israel, but who has no faith. Not all of the visible Israel is the Israel of faith, the Israel of God (See Romans 9:6-8). Believers in Christ, Jew and Gentile, receive the promises through Christ.

Christians shall inherit the earth and not only Palestine. But it will be in God's chosen way and in his chosen timetable, not through political or military action.

4 posted on 06/28/2003 9:14:22 AM PDT by Cacophonous
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To: Cacophonous
Your wrong. God meant just what he said concernig Israel and land. When it comes to ETERNAL LIFE it was opened up to ALL. IN fact Jews who refuse to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior and recognize what He did on the cross (the ultimate sacrafice), Jewish or not, they will NOT have eternal life. So from a spiritual perspective, lack of belief in Jesus, denies a person eternal life, Jewish or otherwise. Being Jewish by blood means nothing. Belief in Jesus Christ alone is what gives one eternal life.
8 posted on 06/28/2003 9:22:52 AM PDT by nmh
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To: Cacophonous
All the promises given to Israel were promises attached to Christ and inseparable from him. ===

Exactly. None have to speculate on christian belief to use christians to one advantage.
70 posted on 06/28/2003 7:43:21 PM PDT by RusIvan
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To: Cacophonous
IMHO, any theological position that misses God's clear intent to use BOTH blood Israel and The Church just misses out wholesale on God's heart as well as His intent.
140 posted on 07/01/2003 9:27:22 AM PDT by Quix (FAIR MINDED & INTERESTED--please watch UFO special Tues eve & share opinions)
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To: Cacophonous
You are wrong.
155 posted on 07/01/2003 9:53:52 AM PDT by gedeon3
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To: Cacophonous
Your post is so bad, I hardly know where to start!

The prophesy recorded in Jeremiah 31 is directed to both the House of Israel, which consists of the Northern Ten Tribes of Israel, and the House of Judah.

Jeremiah 30
4   And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.

Then follows the now familiar pattern of the need for punishment upon both Houses of Israel by military defeat and scattering in exile, but resulting in the complete accomplishment of God's purposes by their eventual regathering as being seen today in both Jewish and Christian circles.

10   Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid.
11   For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet I will not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

It's futile to try to make this prophecy refer to the Christian Church because in no time in its history was the Christian Church punished by scattering, exile, and captivity as was the Tribes of Israel?

24  The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he hath done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it.

These words bring to mind a parallel passage in the Book of Isaiah 27:8-9

From the KJV
Isaiah 27
8   In measure, when it shooteth forth, thou wilt debate with it: he stayeth his rough wind in the day of the east wind.
9   By this therefore shall the iniquity of Jacob be purged; and this is all the fruit to take away his sin; when he maketh all the stones of the altar as chalkstones that are beaten in sunder, the groves and images shall not stand up.

From the JPS (1917) Jewish Bible Tanakh
8  In full measure, when Thou sendest her away, Thou dost contend with her; He hath removed her with His rough blast in the day of the east wind.
9  Therefore by this shall the iniquity of Jacob be expiated, and this is all the fruit of taking away his sin: when he maketh all the stones of the altar as chalkstones that are beaten in pieces, so that the Asherim and the sun-images shall rise no more.

By this (exile and captivity) therefore shall the iniquity of Jacob be atoned.  It is worth noting that Isaiah here indicates that the exile would serve as an atonement for the sins of the people. Such an idea of atonement for sins might come as a surprise to those used to thinking in Christian terms only.

Fortunately, God's plan does not end with punishment and abandonment of His people, Israel.  Jeremiah 31 starts out with the hopeful declaration of the LORD, Himself, "At that time (that is, "in the latter days," see Jeremiah 30-24)...I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be My people."

Jeremiah 31:1
At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people.

God promises the descendants of Israel (who, through captivity, exile, and intermarriage with Gentiles became assimilated and inculturated Gentiles today) that they will find "grace in the wilderness" (verse 2).

2   Thus saith the LORD, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest.

Followed by the most moving promise of all, "I have loved you with an everlasting love" (verse 3).

3   The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

It would be a mistake, at this point, to assume that these promises are made only to the House of Judah, the Jewish people; on the contrary, read closely verses 5, 6, and 9b:

5   Thou shalt yet plant vines upon the mountains of Samaria: the planters shall plant, and shall eat them as common things.
6   For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God.
9   They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

These clear statements, made by the LORD, identify the primary audience. It was the Northern Ten Tribes who occupied Samaria/the hill country of Ephraim anciently, and who are prophesied to do so again.

These Ten Northern Tribes, who are frequently referred to in Scripture collectively as Ephraim, are called the LORD'S "first-born" (possibly an allusion to Genesis 48:14-20 and I Chronicles 5:1).

Genesis 48
14   And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.
15   And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
16   The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
17   And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
18   And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
19   And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
20   And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.


1 Chronicles 5
1   Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.

The word of God to the descendants of Ephraim, the Northern Ten Tribes, is:

8   Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.

And again, stated even more emphatically in verse 10:

10   Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.


Notice the interesting wording here. These declarations are  made to the "coasts of the earth, and isles afar off," and the descendants of Israel are to be gathered from the remote parts of the earth.  These locations certainly lend evidence to current efforts to identify the descendants of the Ten Tribes with the Northwest European peoples and their colonies (America).

Proceeding to the next major section of Jeremiah 31, we encounter the passage:

15   Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rachel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.

According to the historical books of the Bible, the Jewish people are primarily composed of descendants of the Tribes of Judah and Levi, and to a lesser extent Benjamin. Judah and Levi are the children of Leah, not of Rachel (Gen. 29:32-35). And while Benjamin was Rachel's son, she never got the chance to know him, as she died during his birth (Gen. 35:16-19).

But Rachel did give Jacob a son, whom Jacob loved very dearly, Joseph (Gen. 37:3).

It is this son Joseph and his children [Joseph remember had two sons….Manessah and Ephraim] whose descendants were taken in the Assyrian captivity and never returned to their land or their faith that Rachel is weeping over in Jeremiah 31:15.
16   Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.

What children are these?

17   And there is hope in thine end, saith the LORD, that thy children shall come again to their own border.
18   I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God.
19   Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.
20   Is Ephraim my dear son? is he a pleasant child? for since I spake against him, I do earnestly remember him still: therefore my bowels are troubled for him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the LORD.

It is clear that it is The House of Israel/Ephraim/the Northern Ten Tribes which through intermarriage is melted into the Gentile gene pool of the world which is being referred to here, not the House of Judah/the Jews. If anyone is tempted to think that the term Ephraim is being employed here in a generic way to address all Israel, just glance down to verses 23, 24, and 27, where Judah is treated as distinct from Ephraim/the House of Israel.


31   Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

Is this "new covenant" made with the Christian Gentile Church or with descendants of the Tribes of Jacob of the House of Judah and Ephraim (comprising the Ten Northern Tribes of Jacob)?

Let's say that you, as the Christian, are Ephraim and this prophecy applies to the Christian Church, then according to the timing of when God will make this "new covenant", can you say that this New Covenant is already made and existing because the Christians have been restored to the land of Israel and their ancestor's faith, or do most of Christianity today lay outside the land of Israel and have a belief system quite opposite to the Jewish Church of Jerusalem?

Note that this new covenant is not made with the Gentiles; neither is it made solely with the house of Judah, the Jews. Rather, it is a future promise that is guaranteed to the Jews and to their brothers, the descendants of Joseph/Ephraim (Jesus called these the "lost sheep of the House of Israel [Ephraim])

Was God talking through Jeremiah the Prophet to Baptists, Methodists, Catholics today, or was God speaking through Jeremiah to the House of Judah (Jews of the Tribe of Judah and Benjamin) and the House of Israel (consisting of the Ten other Tribes of Jacob)?

33   But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

God doesn't lie.

Could these promises be taken away from the physical descendants of Jacob/Israel and given instead to a group of Gentiles calling themselves "Christians" who reject the Laws of God let alone His appointed times such as Biblical Festivals and Sabbaths?

Are you grafted into Israel as Paul stated in Romans, or are you grafted into a Gentile organization built upon Replacement Theology given to you by the early Gentile Catholic Church?

Matthew 10
5   These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6   But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7   And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Do you observe the Festivals and Sabbaths of the Lord and of Israel, or do you observe pagan holidays that have had Jesus' name affixed to them and have taken the place of what is commanded in Scripture?

Have you substituted the "day of the sun" (Sunday) for the Sabbath?

Are you, as Gentile Godfearers grafted into Israel, in fact part of Israel and the people of God or have you apostatized from truth, and practice a mixture of truth and error in Christianity as it stands today?

Are you the "remnant" among the Gentile nations who will be gathered as the "elect" and be presented at the Marriage Supper along with Judah-Benjamin, thus making up the Bride of Messiah, or will you be delegated to be the "servant-foolish bride" and be cast out of the Wedding Supper because Jesus, a Jew, in his own Torah, is commanded by his Father to not marry Gentiles! The only Gentile who will become a bride to Messiah is one, like Ruth, who said "your people will be my people and your God my God."

Is the "New Covenant" really NEW at all?

testament and covenant both bring up 1242 from the Greek
1242
diatheke dee-ath-ay'-kay from 1303; properly, a disposition, i.e. (specially) a contract (especially a devisory will):--covenant, testament.
1) a disposition, arrangement, of any sort, which one wishes to be valid, the last disposition which one makes of his earthly possessions after his death, a testament or will
2) a compact, a covenant, a testament
   a) God's covenant with Noah, etc.

Notice it does NOT say the church!

Do the actual words in the Greek Scriptures show us that a "testament" is made between God and the Church?   NOPE!

It does mention the covenant with Noah though.....


Hebrews 8
10   For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Hebrews 8:10 says: "For THIS the covenant," and then quotes from Jer. 31:33.
Hebrews 8
10   For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

this from the Greek
3778
houtos hoo'-tos, including nominative masculine plural houtoi hoo'-toy, nominative feminine singular haute how'-tay, and nominative feminine plural hautai how'-tahee from the article 3588 and 846; the he (she or it), i.e. this or that (often with article repeated):--he (it was that), hereof, it, she, such as, the same, these, they, this (man, same, woman), which, who.
1) this, these, etc.

846 autos ow-tos' from the particle au (perhaps akin to the base of 109 through the idea of a baffling wind) (backward); the reflexive pronoun self, used (alone or in the comparative 1438) of the third person , and (with the proper personal pronoun) of the other persons:--her, it(-self), one, the other, (mine) own, said, (self-), the) same, ((him-, my-, thy- )self, (your-)selves, she, that, their(-s), them(-selves), there(-at, - by, -in, -into, -of, -on, -with), they, (these) things, this (man), those, together, very, which.
1)
himself, herself, themselves, itself
2)
he, she, it
3) the same

In other words, "this---same" covenant, as was spoken by Jeremiah has now been RENEWED .... NOT REPLACED!  THE SAME COVENANT, WITH ITS LAWS AND COMMANDMENTS WHICH ARE ITS COVENANT STIPULATIONS.
   How do Gentiles, who once were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, who had no hope, and were without God in the world according to Eph. 2:12 become part of this "New/Same Covenant" of Jeremiah spoken about in the New Testament?  By being grafted into Israel and the faith of Israel which practices Sabbaths and Festivals, or by becoming members of various denominations and non-denominations which reject God's Biblical Feasts, Festivals, and Sabbaths?

Are you "in the faith" or just have "a" faith about something which God never gave mankind?

Jeremiah 31 states that the day will come when this "RENEWED" covenant will be made with "whom"?  Israel and Judah?  Or with Judah and the church which rejects the faith of Judah?

The answer to that question is "Israel and Judah".   Israel being understood as Ephraim who today are dispersed Gentiles worldwide who take the form of Christians to whom can be traced Jewish Roots all the way back to the Assyrian Captivity and whom reject paganism and paganized religious practices, (the very reason Ephraim was taken captive in the first place).

This "New" testament is often used to refer to a collection of books written by the Apostles. It isn't.  The collection of books commonly known as the New Testament has unfortunately replaced the Bible Jesus used and which the early church took to the Gentiles for almost 400 years before the Catholic Church created a document to establish their validity for doctrines which they taught that were often contradicted by the Torah and Tanakh (the Bible Jesus used and which was taken to the Gentiles in the Great Commission).   As I've shown above, the "New Testament/Covenant" is not NEW at all, but is a RENEWAL of the Old Testament/Covenant.

A covenant, or testament, is a contract between two parties. Webster's unabridged dictionary defines "testament" this way: "In law, a writing, under seal, containing the terms of agreement or contract between parties..."  

Because this is a legal document and has an impact on our lives, we certainly should be intimately familiar with what the terms of this covenant are. The collections of writings that we call the New Testament have been much too vague about the terms of this agreement.  Since most of the writings of the New Testament do not contain the terms of this covenant, it would be poor scholarship to refer to this collection of Apostolic Writings as the "New Testament,"  especially since there is no 'new' testament, but a RENEWAL of the Old Testament.     

Acts 15
28   For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29   That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

And even this reference to the agreement, is much too vague.

163 posted on 07/01/2003 10:05:50 AM PDT by ET(end tyranny) ( Luke 16:17 -- And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.)
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To: Cacophonous
Replacement theology has been totally debunked, See Arnold Fructembaums 'Israelology", Israel is not the church, her promises were to national Israel, not the church.
182 posted on 07/01/2003 12:43:22 PM PDT by Scythian
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To: Cacophonous
My reply to yours is not to disagree with your opinion, which you are entitled to. All of the quotes that you used were from the new testament and so do not pertain to Judaism and what we believe. when you use the term "christ" you attach it to Jesus. Jews never accepted Jesus as the Messiah, therefore anything he said or was written later has absolutely no weight on Judaism or our perceptions. On a personal note, I believe that the fast growing secular population in Israel today may have a huge effect on the state of the nation....but thats just my opinion.
195 posted on 09/15/2003 2:49:12 PM PDT by priceofreedom (On A Roadmap To Hell)
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