What Goes Around Comes Around - The Only Clear Winner in This SCO Versus IBM Case is Microsoft

PBS ^ | JUNE 19, 2003 | Robert X. Cringely

[Dominic Harr]

Oh, absolutely, the 'Java Community Process is not perfect. But it is controlled by developers.

Should you have to pay a fee to belong? I'd say yes.

PMO: The JSPA carries a nominal fee to cover administrative costs:

• $5000/year annual fee for commercial entities
• $2000/year annual fee for educational, governmental or non-profit organizations

There is no fee for Java licensees.

[for-q-clinton]

I'd say that's one hell of a stipulation for Harr and his free software budies, what daya think?

Well the board isn't a tool, so it's ok to charge money for something that really has no value whatsoever. Only if it's a tool should it be free.

[Dominic Harr]

Y'know, this is fascinating.

You really thought Sun controlled Java? You didn't realize it was controlled by the developer community, and that's what has allowed it to mature into the powerful tool it is today?

[for-q-clinton]

There is no fee for Java licensees.

Really, wow. I was thinking of writing my own Java compiler. You say there's no licensing fee for that--Wow. I must have been mistaken about this Java thing. Where can I get more info on that?

[Dominic Harr]

Really, wow. I was thinking of writing my own Java compiler.

You can write your own Java compiler, or VM.

You really don't know any of this?

[for-q-clinton]

You really thought Sun controlled Java? You didn't realize it was controlled by the developer community, and that's what has allowed it to mature into the powerful tool it is today?

This is like trying to explain how mone works to my 3 year old. He just doesn't understand it. There's not much more I can say, but when I get more time I'm sure I'll find an in depth article that will explain it. Is there a who really controls Java for Dummies available? Maybe then Harr would understand it.

[Golden Eagle]

Is there a who really controls Java for Dummies available? Maybe then Harr would understand it.

There's very little, if anything, that Harr understands. His sole purpose in life seems to be oriented towards getting things for free. How sad to live the life of a begger.

[for-q-clinton]

I could have sworn MSFT had to pay Sun money to make a VM. But you're saying Sun doesn't own Java anymore. So MSFT can make their own VM now I guess.

Also what's all this crap I heard about other companies needing to license it from Sun?

I'm obviously wasting my time because you haven't done your research or you're just going off your limited experience. For you it was free, but that doesn't mean it's free for everyone. If I choose to do as Sun says I can probably get it for free, but if I want to do what I want Sun won't let me. I think that what one might call Vendor Lock-in.

[Golden Eagle]

'Beggar' may be the correct spelling. Sorry, not someone I usually find myself stuck associating with.

[ThinkDifferent]

I was thinking of writing my own Java compiler.

Go for it. These guys are doing the same.

[for-q-clinton]

There's very little, if anything, that Harr understands. His sole purpose in life seems to be oriented towards getting things for free. How sad to live the life of a begger.

I concur. I better go to bed now before he starts saying the OS is only a truck again.

[Dominic Harr]

Is there a who really controls Java for Dummies available?

Yes, of course, it's public knowledge right here:

Community Development of Java Technology Specs

The Java Community Process is the way the Java platform evolves. Its an open organization of international Java developers and licensees whose charter is to develop and revise Java technology specifications, reference implementations, and technology compatibility kits. Both Java technology and the JCP were originally created by Sun Microsystems, however, the JCP has evolved from the informal process that Sun used beginning in 1995, to a formalized process overseen by representatives from many organizations across the Java community.

This is too funny.

[Golden Eagle]

Don't fall for Harr's BS. Java programming is easily best accomplished by using J2EE, from Sun.

[Golden Eagle]

http://java.sun.com/

[Dominic Harr]

I could have sworn MSFT had to pay Sun money to make a VM.

No, MSFT had to pay Sun money for purposefully defrauding developers, as internal MS memos proved they did.

MSFT licensed the term "Pure Java" from Sun to put on their "Visual J++" product (which I used at the time).

Then MSFT deliberately broke the terms of that license.

[Dominic Harr]

Java programming is easily best accomplished by using J2EE, from Sun.

Um -- dude -- you -- um.

All 'Java' is "from Sun", including J2EE.

If you mean 'compilers', Sun makes several (one is free with the free SDK download everyone gets). I use Visual Cafe.

What in the heck are you talking about?

[for-q-clinton]

Click here if you want to see another's opinion about this farce.

[for-q-clinton]

for those of you that don't want to click...here's some highlights.

Twelve of the fifteen JSRs were submitted by Sun.

If it seems a little strange that all of this work is going on behind closed doors without significant public input or awareness of its existence, that's the Java Community Process at work. The JCP is Sun's new procedure for adding to Java with input from its major commercial partners. The "Community" is comprised of companies who are willing to pay Sun $2000-$5000 a year to belong, as well as Sun's Java commercial licensees who pay even more to license the JDK source code. This is very much a gated community designed to keep out the riff-raff like you and me and let Sun run things the way it sees fit. The process works like this:


A dues-paying, community member presents Sun with a Java Specification Request (JSR) for a proposed extension or change to Java.

Sun's Process Management Office approves or disapproves the JSR. Very important: at this step Sun can unilaterally veto any submission. There is no appeal of this veto, and there is no independent review of Sun's decision at this point.

Sun forms an expert group to write the specification; this begins with a "Call for Experts" to participate. Sun chooses the leader of the group, who then chooses the remainder of the experts. Only company employees are allowed to be experts. Freelancers are excluded. (This is similar to W3C procedures, but the W3C allows exceptions for recognized experts. Sun does not.)

The expert group writes a first draft of the specification. Participants in the expert group can't talk about the ongoing work with outsiders.

Sun circulates the draft to all Java technology licensees and dues paying members of the Java Community Process.

The expert group collects, reads, and responds to comments.

Sun releases the refined specification to the public for comment.

The expert group collects, reads, and responds to comments, resulting in more refinements.

The expert group produces the final specification, along with a reference implementation and compatibility tests.

When the process is done, Sun owns the copyright and other intellectual property rights related to the spec. As owner, they will not allow derivative works they decide are incompatible.

To me this makes it pretty clear, that this process is not an open one. If you're still not convinced, ask yourself these questions:

Can anyone tell Sun No? Can anyone keep Sun from putting something into the spec they want to put it in? Or put something in that Sun wants to keep out?

Can Sun's enemies (e.g. Microsoft, HP, etc.) participate in this process on an equal footing with Sun? Can they even participate at all?

When you actually read the fine print, what the Java Community Process says is that Sun agrees to let other companies contribute their time, money, and knowledge to help Sun do what it wants to do anyway. That may be intelligent business, but it's not an open, community based process for developing standards.

[Dominic Harr]

Oh, absolutely, the 'Java Community Process' isn't perfect. It is still just a 'committee', and made up of individuals.

But it is *not* controlled by Sun.

It *is* controlled by developers and the user community.

And that is one very, very large reason for it's success. Especially when compared with MS-only solutions.

[for-q-clinton]

It *is* controlled by developers and the user community.

Earlier you reminded me of Al Gore, now you're acting like Bill Clinton. I guess it depends on what the meaning of the word is *is*.

It's been fun poking you, but I think there's nothing left to poke. Have a good night and God bless.