Church tosses defiant minister: He refused to stop performing gay marriages

The Cincinnati Enquirer ^ | Tuesday, June 17, 2003 | Andrea Uhde

[ohioWfan]

I've decided that I'd like to save my discussions on this issue with you until we BOTH know the truth in Heaven.

You don't respect me.....that's abundantly clear, and I've lost quite a bit of respect for you because of your condescension toward me on this thread.

I think it's best if we leave this subject alone.

[AppyPappy]

Once again, that's what the Scripture says. I don't own a church therefore it is not my place to silence people. Every woman must decide for herself whether to follow Scripture.

[ohioWfan]

By the way, I was once a fairly radical feminist, and convinced of your present position before I studied scripture. :)

Hmmmm..... you can't seem to help your patronizing.

I studied Scripture FIRST.....I have been a Christian since 1956, have been involved in Bible study and prayer, have studied Scripture at a Christian college, and been involved in this same debate among Christian scholars in the 1970's. I became a moderate (though always Christian) feminist in my twenties, and backed off as I matured, but still maintained the respect for women in the eyes of God that was/is missing in so many fundamentalist churches.

I have looked at Scripture anew, and still disagree with your interpretation.

[ohioWfan]

OK, then. You do believe Scripture says that women should be completely silent in church.

Therefore, you must conclude that every woman who has opened her mouth for any reason (in a worship service, or a meeting, that is) inside a church has sinned, and that all churches who allow it are also in sin.

[Lady Eileen]

God used women throughout Scripture to lead...look at Esther, as well as Deborah.

(1) Esther's authority was 100% derivative of her husband's and extended only to the extent of his permission and over his kingdom, just as a wife's authority is absolute under her husband's in their own home.

Thus Esther is a not a model for women pastors in church, which is a different kind of government.

(2) At first glance, Deborah is a more plausible model for would-be women pastors. She led Israel, not a pagan country, and her authority was not derived from her husband. It was God's will for her to serve as she did. But those who think Deborah is a model for women who want to lead in church today overlook or ignore Scriptures that clarify the unique nature and purpose of God's elevation of Deborah to leadership over Israel.

God raised Deborah, a woman, to lead Israel at that time in large part to judge the men of Israel for their cowardice. She mocks Barak for refusing to lead Israel into battle because he wanted to hide behind the skirts of a woman. [Judges 4:8-9]

That point is also clear from Isaiah chapter 3, which is a judgment on Judah and Jerusalem. Part of God's judgment is that children and women will rule over the weak men: "My people -- infants are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, your guides mislead you..." [Isaiah 3:12]

Some things don't change: today, thousands of years later, feminist guides still mislead many, including many well-intentioned Christians in the church. The fact that they're succeeding is evidence of God's judgment on this generation.

[AppyPappy]

You do believe Scripture says that women should be completely silent in church.

Yes I believe that because that is what it says. My question to you is "What leads you to a contrary position to that Scripture?".

Therefore, you must conclude....

Ever heard of a "strawman argument"?

[ohioWfan]

I have never said, nor implied that I have no faults, and it's preposterous for you to assume that it's what I think. I could give you a list if you'd like, though it might take a while........

But I do NOT have the faults that YOU have ascribed to me on this thread, so it would be a lie to 'admit' them......and I will state again, that you are on dangerous ground by assuming you know what God's will is for another person, unless it is involving sin. Dangerous ground.

[ohioWfan]

I'm not influenced by feminists on this issue. I'm influenced by the whole of Scripture, and how God has used women through history.

To assume that one who comes to a different conclusion about the role of women has been misled by feminists is a mistake.

[Lady Eileen]

Excellent brief and to the point exegesis.

Thank you very much. But I really must credit God's word for telling me to ask my husband at home and my husband for helping me find the answer in Scripture rather than seeking wisdom in human imagination or experience.

[BooBoo1000]

Yeah PCA churches are great. If you are a man. Women can't be ministers, elders or deacons.


This remark is absolutly a falsehood. I know many women and men who are Deacons and Elders in the Presbyterian Church. I have served with many of them, and, respect them. I also have served as an Elder. Please check your facts before posting them..

[ohioWfan]

I think you need to dig deeper beyond what it seems to say, to see what it means. All Bible students (myself included) need to do this always.

Pardon the 'strawman' conclusion, but what other conclusion can one draw? If people through the centuries have allowed women to speak in church, and it is opposed to what Scripture says, then they are in sin.

[ohioWfan]

Yes, patronizing.

You said you agreed with me as a feminist, but now that you have studied Scripture you now disagree.

You have consistently said or implied that I don't know Scripture, and that you do. If that is not public 'correction and reproof' what is?

So, regardless of your very strong opinions to the contrary, I will continue to seek and do God's will for my life and learn more about His Word....... and I pray that you do the same.