Tale Of The 3-Second Yellow Light

CBS News ^ | June 12, 2003

[JTN]

(CBS) John Irving knew he had been caught. He knew a traffic camera had seen him run a red light, but he also thought the yellow light had turned red too fast. So he returned to the busy intersection and timed it.

His findings: 2.7 seconds.

"Not even three seconds," he says.

Three seconds, when every other yellow light on the stretch of road was four seconds long. In other words, as he drove the street, the yellow lights in order lasted four, four, four and out of nowhere three seconds.

"It's a blink of an eye - a $70 blink of an eye," says Irving.

Many communities around the country are using cameras to try to stop drivers from running red lights. It's a safety issue, yes, but drivers like Irving are say it's really about making money for local governments.

Why this light in Bethesda was three seconds might have a million dollar answer. Literally. This one traffic camera earned the county $1 million in fines over 14 months.

"It shocked me," he says. "And the only explanation for it is that light is a trick. And law enforcement shouldn't be a trick."

Lon Anderson of the Triple A's mid Atlantic office complains too many traffic cams today are money scams for the cities that put them up.

Washington D.C. collected big on an odd double yellow light that turns red when it's not even at an intersection. In Baltimore, Anderson says, you can get a red light ticket by missing the light by one tenth of a second.

These systems can work, but why can't they work without tricking them? Why can't they work without gimmicks?

But County Executive Doug Duncan calls traffic cameras essential in an era when red light running is rampant.

"These are not traps, these are not tricks," says Duncan.

He says the cameras reduce red light running 40 to 70 per cent.

"Its a way to make people safe," says Duncan. "We put those cameras up at the intersections that are most dangerous."

Still, Duncan won't defend the three-second light.

When asked why that light is three seconds, Duncan laughs then adds, "I don't know, it should be the same as everywhere else."

He says he plans to change it.

Two days after CBS News taped this interview - and a year after Irving first complained, the county set all the lights on the stretch at 3.5 seconds. The county keeps to its belief the cameras are for safety -- so it plans to keep the $1 million.

[berserker]

Link to Montgomery County, Maryland website concerning its red light camera program.

[laredo44]

Highlights of Montgomery County, Maryland's Red Light Enforcement Camera Program

Ten cameras will be rotated among fifteen camera sites. Fine is $75.00

No points will be issued against vehicle owner's driving record (similar to a parking ticket)

Insurance companies cannot consider the ticket in calculating insurance rates

Failure to pay fines will result in inability to renew vehicle registration

No points? Insurance premiums can't be increased? Sure sounds like a revenue program. They are hoping that by not issuing points or having premiums increase, folks will follow the path of least resistence, and pay the $75 fine rather than challenge the goose that laid the golden eg...er law.

Didn't see anything about how much revenue was raised at each different light, though.

[jimt]

Run the dang light, Einstein, take your physics chalkboard down to see the judge!

So it's OK to set yellow light times so as to make everybody a criminal?

Traffic "engineers" should ignore physics in setting yellow light times?

Judges should impose traffic fines regardless of reality?

That seems to be what I'm hearing. Have I got it right?

[berserker]

The "no points rule" avoids the issue of having to prove in court beyond a reasonable doubt who was the driver of the car when it was photographed.

[CHICAGOFARMER]

It takes, depending on the driver, 0.5-1.0 seconds to just respond to a change in a traffic signal. For the sake of arguement, let's say the driver reacts in 0.7 seconds, leaving 2.0 seconds to brake. 35 mph is equivalent to roughly 40-45 feet per second. Deceleration will be 22 ft/sec^2, or roughly 2/3 G. Distance to stop is 45 feet - about 3 car lengths. This is what I would consider a panic stop.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Just for your information.

60 mph is 88 feet per second, or 1.46 feet per second for 1 mile per hour.

35 mph is 51.33 feet per second. This is a smoking tie screecher......

[aristeides]

How much in fines was collected at the other nearby lights?

Very few traffic lights in this county (Montgomery County, MD, where I happen to live) have cameras. I doubt if any of the lights near this one have cameras.

[aristeides]

There was a front-page article in a Sunday edition of the Washington Post last year that said speed cameras had been put at intersections in D.C. where there were likely to be a lot of commuters from outside the District driving. The mayor of Washington also admitted around the same time that the cameras were intended, at least in part, as a revenue-raiser. In D.C., these cameras are a substitute for the commuter tax Congress has not allowed D.C. to levy.

[ffusco]

That is too funny.

[ffusco]

You also have those "jug handles" that I've never seen anywhere else.

[certify]

the goverment dose not get enough of you income @ 40% to 50%
its want MORE.plus the businesses get a kick back for the traffic cameras.

[3Lean]

Even worse than that...
35 mph is actually 50 feet per second.
The driver has to make a choice - stop or go through. When they make the decision to stop they have 2.0 seconds to stop. Close to 0.9 G deceleration (about what a Ford Taurus can achieve in Consumer Reports testing, best case, dry pavement). However, that only works if they are more than 85 feet from the intersection when the light changes.
If the driver is closer than 85 feet the wise choice would seem to be to go on through the light, it will only take 2.5 seconds to do so (assuming 2 lane intersection approx 40 feet across).
Finally, if the driver is 95 feet or more from the intersection he had better not try to beat the light, because it will take all of the 2.7 seconds to cover the distance and get him out of the intersection before the light turns red and he gets a ticket.
Bottom line, the driver has 0.7 seconds to react, decide exactly what the stopping distance is (is the road a little slick?), if he is closer than 85 feet (but not more than 95 feet) from the intersection or he will either skid into the intersection as the light changes or just be leaving the intersection. Doesn't seem very fair to me.

This just gets worse if the speed limit is higher or if the intersection has more than 2 lanes. 2.7 seconds is not enough time.

[aristeides]

Or, when you know this sort of problem is going to arise, you can choose to be going slower than the speed limit. May irritate the other drivers, but under the circumstances it seems a lot safer.

[Question_Assumptions]

You also have those "jug handles" that I've never seen anywhere else.

It helps us to avoid the people slowing down to turn left in the left lane of a busy highway, something that I do see everywhere else. Now if we could only stop out-of-state people from trying that on a divided highway with a clearly marked "No Turns" or "No Left Turn" intersection in New Jersey.

[ffusco]

I used to drive on the T'pke to BJ's near the Burlington Coat Factory. They work fine.

[Fudd]

You're right. I was doing math in my head, which sometimes doesn't come out exactly right. Regardless, the yellow time is too short.

[ffusco]

Now if we could only stop out-of-state people from trying that on a divided highway with a clearly marked "No Turns" or "No Left Turn" intersection in New Jersey.

Deal. Now if we could do something about the obnoxious bridge and tunnel crowd that making going to Manhattan bars so much fun (sarcasm on)

[Dusty Rose]

Beware the yellow light. My mother got a $40 ticket for going thru YELLOW.

[Citizen of the Savage Nation]

Yellow means slow down, not go faster.

Sure about that? One should 'slow down', so as to come to a complete stop to comply with a red light even if that means by doing so, the complete stop won't be achieved until the car is in the middle of the intersection.

Is this what you are trying to say??

[Charlie OK]

Regarding the article you linked to. Maybe if people werent so used to running red lights and getting away with it, they wouldnt rear-end people who choose to drive safely.

I was nearly rear-ended the day I was driving my newborn daughter home from the hospital because some a$$hole was gonna run the red. I wouldnt have gone through a yellow, the light was already red. Thank God he just zipped around me and nearly clipped the car already in the intersection from the other direction. I was trying to drive safely, for obvious reasons, and it nearly got me in a wreck.