Oldest Human Skulls Found

BBC ^ | 6-11-2003 | Jonathan Amos

[Bloody Sam Roberts]

I think that the oldest known fossils might be the ones that I alluded to...

Ahhh, semantics. Don't you love it?

Known by whom?

[PatrickHenry]

By the way, contrary to the constant claim of the creationists, Piltdown Man wasn't a fraud created by biologists to prop up the theory of evolution. It was a bogus fossil planted by a crank, who apparently wanted to place his fake "missing link" in England. Genuine evolutionists realized that such a fossil didn't make any sense in the context of all their other evidence. Eventually the hoax was exposed -- by evolutionists. The Piltdown episode, rather than being an embarrassment, actually demonstrates how powerful evolution theory is. It predicts what kind of evidence will be found to exist, and it exposes bogus "evidence."

In reality, Piltdown man was a fraud committed on evolutionists, but not by evolutionists. In a way, it reminds me of the fake and out-of-context quotes that creationists frequently produce.

[Consort]

Known by whom?

You and I for starters.

[Bloody Sam Roberts]

...but that's just nit-picking.

That's what I do best. To the eternal chagrin of many a Freeper.

Sort of like a baboon in grooming mode. Very apropos for the thread, don't you think?

[exmarine]

Peking Man and Java Man aren't confirmed frauds? I will have to look that up anew and see exactly what the scoop is. If my information is wrong, I will gladly admit as much.

[Bloody Sam Roberts]

In an abstract sense, I suppose that's true as well. But I am more of the mind that says its existence cannot be truly known unless it is found. Until then its existence can only be theorized or postulated.

[VadeRetro]

Exactly. Piltdown was evidence for the "Out of England" theory of human origins, a very jarring data point. Evolution tells you plenty about what to expect and not to expect.

[Lurking Libertarian]

Peking Man and Java Man aren't confirmed frauds? I will have to look that up anew and see exactly what the scoop is. If my information is wrong, I will gladly admit as much.

Not confirmed frauds. The original Peking man fossils were lost during World War II-- the Japanese occupiers stole them from a museum in China, and they have never been recovered, but we have casts and photos made before the war, and they are recognized as genuine. Java Man has been reclassified-- the consensus these days is that he was an Asian variety of Homo Erectus, not a separate species-- but he was not a fraud.

[VadeRetro]

Actually, creationists most often try to dismiss Peking and Java Man as either fully ape or fully human. They just can't agree with each other on which it is.

[FairWitness]

The skulls are not an exact match to those of people living today; they are slightly larger, longer and have more pronounced brow ridges.

"Slightly larger, longer and more pronounced" than the average today, or actually larger, longer and more pronounced than any specimen from any normal population living today?

[blam]

"I've been holding out for some kind of synthesis of "Out of Africa" and "multi-regional," but OOA is the one with evidence piling up for it these days."

Yup, I don't care for that..boo.

[Doctor Stochastic]

Piltdown Man was already being criticized by December 1912 for not conforming to evolutionary theory. Creationists, by their rejection of evolutionary theory, cannot use this as an argument for the falsity of Piltdown. Later, radiocarbon dating was used to show that the parts of Piltdown were of differing ages. Creationists, bu their rejectio of radiocarbon dating, cannot use this as an argument for the falsity of Piltdown. In fact, creationists did nothing to expose the Piltdown fraud; this was done through evolutionary theory and through radiocarbon dating.

[blam]

"Several hundred."

Thanks. I was thinking the same thing. Then we have this one:

Neanderthal-Cro-Magnon Hybrid?

[VadeRetro]

As I try to explain to our creo brethren, holding out too long against the evidentiary tide puts you in Fantasyland no matter how many debating tricks you know. I'm getting close to throwing in the multiregional towel.

(Still wish there was a nuclear DNA study, though.)

[PatrickHenry]

In fact, creationists did nothing to expose the Piltdown fraud; this was done through evolutionary theory and through radiocarbon dating.

Therefore Piltdown Man is a glorious triumph for the scientific method generally and for the theory of evolution specifically. However, in a creationist model, or an ID model, Piltdown Man would fit right in without the slightest question.

[blam]

"Let's see...Piltdown Man, Peking Man, Nebraska Man, Java Man, Lucy, and now Homo Sapien Idaltu. BWAHAHAHAHAHA."

You forgot 9,000 year old Cheddar Man who has a living relative. (see article)

[PatrickHenry]

I'm getting close to throwing in the multiregional towel.

There's still hope for your "out of Romania" theory.

[VadeRetro]

Galling how you guys never forget a flub.

[PatrickHenry]

Unlike some people around here, those of on the science side usually remember things from one thread to the next.

[CobaltBlue]

Here is a link to an interesting article on Neanderthal population genetics.
http://www.2think.org/neanderthal.shtml