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Bush Praised Pope Despite War Criticism ["one of the greatest moral leaders of our time"]
Newsmax ^ | 6-8-2003 | Mike Reilly

Posted on 06/08/2003 11:12:07 AM PDT by Notwithstanding

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To: Notwithstanding
Eye thing soe.
61 posted on 06/08/2003 3:34:28 PM PDT by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: Notwithstanding
Decaf
62 posted on 06/08/2003 3:35:04 PM PDT by Admin Moderator
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Actually, this thread was not about communism and its fall until Destro posted a meaningless nonsequitoral snipe that can be made about anybody and anything in order to preempt the praise Presidant Bush heaped upon the pope.

"___________ has been greatly exaggerated."

Fill in the blank and you can always claim to be correct or factual, because somewhere someone is certainly on record exagerating about it.

It is "true" but it the way you write about it is downright deceitful. While the whole world continues to applaud the popes pivotal and crucial role in the downfall of the USSR and the entire soviet empire, you choose to be one of the 7 snivelers in the auditorium sitting down during the standing ovation.

My own link mentions and debunks the puffery you despise.
Why you wish to scream at me about it as though its news to me is veeeeeeery interesting.
63 posted on 06/08/2003 3:44:41 PM PDT by Notwithstanding
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To: RedBloodedAmerican; Chancellor Palpatine; Notwithstanding
Did the Pope heap tremendous and sweeping praise upon Bush with regards to Iraq? Seems like Bush is blessing those who persecute him. A true Christian, is George Bush. And I am quite proud of him.

Bush is rightly praising the Pope for being a moral leader. The Pope is a courageous moral leader, and unhesitatingly speaks in the face of a great deal of opposition.

OTOH, Bush has too much class to say anything about the Pope's siding with Chirac and Schroder and Putin in the run-up to the war on Iraq.

Had this coalition prevailed, Hussein would still be stuffing his countrymen into shredders and hanging them on meat hooks, and putting children into prison because their parents opposed him.

The Pope was wrong about Gulf War I, and about the war on Iraq. Period. His reasons for opposing the war were likely bound up in the desire to prevent a wider war between Christians and Muslims, and to protect the Chaldean Christians in Iraq.

Those are good reasons, but they are the same reasons Pius XII used to stifle his own criticism of the Nazis.

I'd feel a lot better about the Pope's opposition if I had once read a single criticism from him about Hussein's human rights abuses.

64 posted on 06/08/2003 3:53:46 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
Bush apparently thinks he is a great man. I guess you and Budh don't see eye to eye. Do you disagree with Bush?
65 posted on 06/08/2003 3:54:40 PM PDT by Notwithstanding
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To: RedBloodedAmerican
Re: RedBloodedAmerican

ANTI-CATHOLIC FREEPER ALERT
66 posted on 06/08/2003 4:05:25 PM PDT by Notwithstanding
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
The pope has never espoused communism nor collectivism. The following chapter from his book "Crossing the Threshold of Hope" explains quite well what he does espouse.


[ Table of Contents | Onward ]

WAS GOD AT WORK IN THE FALL OF COMMUNISM?

God seems to be silent (the "silence of God" as some have said and continue to say still), but in reality, He is constantly at work. Or so claim those who discern the unveiling of Providence's enigmatic plan in human affairs.

To remain within the context of recent events, Your Holiness has often expressed the personal conviction (I remember, for example, the words you spoke in the Baltic countries, during your first visit to ex-Soviet territory, in the autumn of 1993) that in the collapse of atheistic Marxism one can discern the digitus Dei, the "finger of God." You often have alluded to a "mystery," even a "miracle," when speaking of the collapse, after seventy years, of a power that seemed as if it would be around for centuries.

Christ says: "My Father is at work until now, so I am at work" (Jn 5:17). What do these words refer to? Union with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is the essential constitutive element of eternal life. "This is eternal life, that they should know you and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ" (Jn 17:3). But when Jesus speaks of the Father who "is at work until now," He is not referring directly to eternity. He speaks of the fact that God is at work in the world. Christianity is not only a religion of knowledge, of contemplation. It is a religion of God's action and of man's action. That great master of mystical life and contemplation, Saint John of the Cross, has written: "At the evening of our life we will be judged on love" (The Sayings of Light and Love 60). Jesus expressed the same truth even more simply in speaking of the Last Judgment in the Gospel of Saint Matthew (25:31-46).

Can one speak of God's silence? And if so, how should one interpret such a silence?

Yes, in a certain sense God is silent, because He has already revealed everything. He spoke "in ancient times" through the Prophets and "in these last days" through His Son (cf. Heb 1:1-2). In the Son He said to us all that He had to say. Saint John of the Cross says that Christ is "like an abundant mine with many recesses of treasures, so that however deep individuals may go they never reach the end or bottom, but rather in every recess find new veins with new riches everywhere" (Spiritual Canticle 37. 4). We need then to listen once more to the voice of God who speaks in human history. And if His word is not heard, perhaps it is because "the ears" of our hearts are not open to it. In this sense Christ spoke of those who "look but do not see and hear but do not listen or understand" (cf. Mt 13:13), while the experience of God is always within every man's reach, accessible to him in Jesus Christ and in the power of the Holy Spirit.

Today, despite how things might appear, there are many who find the way to experience God who is at work. This is powerfully experienced in our time, especially by the younger generation. What other interpretation could one give not only to all of the associations, but to the many movements flourishing in the Church? What else can these be, if not the word of God which has been heard and welcomed? And how else could the experience of the World Youth Day in Denver be understood, if not as the voice of God being heard by young people in a situation which, humanly speaking, offered no hope of success, also because much was being done to prevent that voice from being heard?

This hearing, this knowledge, is at the origin of action: it gives rise to the movement of thought, the movement of the heart, the movement of the will. I once said, to the leaders of apostolic movements, that the Church itself is first and foremost a "movement," a mission. It is the mission that begins in God the Father and that, through the Son in the Holy Spirit, continually reaches humanity and shapes it in a new way. Yes, Christianity is a great action of God. The action of the word becomes the action of the sacraments.

What else are the sacraments (all of them!), if not the action of Christ in the Holy Spirit? When the Church baptizes, it is Christ who baptizes; when

the Church absolves, it is Christ who absolves; when the Church celebrates the Eucharist, it is Christ who celebrates it: "This is my body." And so on. All the sacraments are an action of Christ, the action of God in Christ. And therefore it is truly difficult to speak of the silence of God. One must speak, rather, of the desire to stifle the voice of God.

Yes, this desire to stifle the voice of God is rather carefully planned. Many will do just about anything so that His voice cannot be heard, so that only the voice of man will be heard, a voice that has nothing to offer except the things of this world. And sometimes such an offer brings with it destruction of cosmic proportions. Isn't this the tragic history of our century?

By your question you confirm that in the fall of Communism the action of God has become almost visible in the history of our century. We must be wary of oversimplification. What we refer to as Communism has its own history. It is the history of protest in the face of injustice, as I recalled in the encyclical Laborem Exercens-a protest on the part of the great world of workers, which then became an ideology. But this protest has also become part of the teaching of the Church. We need but recall the encyclical Rerum Novarum, from the end of the last century. We add: this teaching is not limited to protest, but throws a far-seeing glance toward the future. In fact, it was Leo XIII who in a certain sense predicted the fall of Communism, a fall which would cost humanity and Europe dearly, since the medicine-he wrote in his encyclical of 1891-could prove more dangerous than the disease itself! The Pope said this with all the seriousness and the authority of the Church's Magisterium.

And what are we to say of the three children from Fátima who suddenly, on the eve of the outbreak of the October Revolution, heard: "Russia will convert" and "In the end, my Heart will triumph"...? They could not have invented those predictions. They did not know enough about history or geography, much less the social movements and ideological developments. And nevertheless it happened just as they had said.

Perhaps this is also why the Pope was called from "a faraway country," perhaps this is why it was necessary for the assassination attempt to be made in

St. Peter's Square precisely on May 13, 1981, the anniversary of the first apparition at Fátima-so that all could become more transparent and comprehensible, so that the voice of God which speaks in human history through the "signs of the times" could be more easily heard and understood.

This, then, is the Father who is always at work, and this is the Son, who is also at work, and this is the invisible Holy Spirit who is Love, and as Love is ceaseless creative, saving, sanctifying, and life-giving action.

Therefore, it would be simplistic to say that Divine Providence caused the fall of Communism. In a certain sense Communism as a system fell by itself. It fell as a consequence of its own mistakes and abuses. It proved to be a medicine more dangerous than the disease itself. It did not bring about true social reform, yet it did become a powerful threat and challenge to the entire world. But it fell by itself, because of its own inherent weakness.

"My Father is at work until now, so I am at work" (Jn 5:17). The fall of Communism opens before us a retrospective panorama of modern civilization's typical way of thinking and acting, especially in Europe, where Communism originated. Modern civilization, despite undisputed successes in many fields, has also made many mistakes and given rise to many abuses with regard to man, exploiting him in various ways. It is a civilization that constantly equips itself with power structures and structures of oppression, both political and cultural (especially through the media), in order to impose similar mistakes and abuses on all humanity.

How else can we explain the increasing gap between the rich North and the ever poorer South? Who is responsible for this? Man is responsible-man, ideologies, and philosophical systems. I would say that responsibility lies with the struggle against God, the systematic elimination of all that is Christian. This struggle has to a large degree dominated thought and life in the West for three centuries. Marxist collectivism is nothing more than a "cheap version" of this plan. Today a similar plan is revealing itself in all its danger and, at the same time, in all its faultiness.

God, on the other hand, is faithful to His Covenant. He has made it with humanity in Jesus Christ. He cannot now withdraw from it, having decided once and for all that the destiny of man is eternal life and the Kingdom of Heaven. Will man surrender to the love of God, will he recognize his tragic

mistake? Will the Prince of Darkness surrender, he who is "the father of lies" (Jn 8:44), who continually accuses the sons of men as once he accused Job (cf. Jb 1:9ff)? It is unlikely that he will surrender, but his arguments may weaken. Perhaps, little by little, humanity will become more sober, people will open their ears once more in order to hear that word by which God has said everything to humanity.

And there will be nothing humiliating about this. Every person can learn from his own mistakes. So can humanity, allowing God to lead the way along the winding paths of history. God does not cease to be at work. His essential work will always remain the Cross and the Resurrection of Christ. This is the ultimate word of truth and of love. This is also the unending source of God's action in the sacraments, as well as in other ways that are known to Him alone. His is an action which passes through the heart of man and through the history of humanity.

67 posted on 06/08/2003 4:17:53 PM PDT by Notwithstanding
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To: Notwithstanding
Waaaah! I missed the flame war!
68 posted on 06/08/2003 4:19:34 PM PDT by drlevy88
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To: Chancellor Palpatine
who pretty much lumped the President of the US with the antichrist

howd he dood dat?

69 posted on 06/08/2003 4:20:33 PM PDT by drlevy88
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To: Notwithstanding
Now, this is really interesting.

I posted in #25:

I don't pretend at all. I am just not as gullible as some. But, I also don't practice idolatry and false worship, so maybe that explains the gullible part, I don't know

To which you replied in #666:

Re: RedBloodedAmerican

ANTI-CATHOLIC FREEPER ALERT

Freudian slip? What are you saying about my Catholic friends and family?
70 posted on 06/08/2003 4:26:28 PM PDT by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: Notwithstanding
666=66. Sorry, must have been a God thing.
71 posted on 06/08/2003 4:26:54 PM PDT by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: Admin Moderator
Re: Posts 35 thru 55 -- Was it absoluted necessary to gut 20 straight posts?
72 posted on 06/08/2003 4:39:18 PM PDT by F16Fighter (Democrats -- The Party of Stalin and Chiraq)
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To: F16Fighter
Re: Posts 35 thru 55 -- Was it absoluted necessary to gut 20 straight posts?

No, it was a totally capricious and arbitrary decision.

73 posted on 06/08/2003 4:40:31 PM PDT by Lazamataz
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To: RedBloodedAmerican
I am saying prayers for them.
74 posted on 06/08/2003 4:40:58 PM PDT by Notwithstanding
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To: F16Fighter
All you missed was a bunch of these:


President Bush heaps tremendous and sweeping praise upon the Pope and it gets under your collar.

75 posted on 06/08/2003 4:45:51 PM PDT by Notwithstanding
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To: Lazamataz
[I]t was a totally capricious and arbitrary decision.

Did I miss the sarcasm tag?

76 posted on 06/08/2003 4:55:13 PM PDT by F16Fighter (Democrats -- The Party of Stalin and Chiraq)
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To: Notwithstanding
"All you missed was a bunch of these..."

Ugh!!

77 posted on 06/08/2003 4:57:03 PM PDT by F16Fighter (Democrats -- The Party of Stalin and Chiraq)
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To: Destro; Notwithstanding
The Vatican's role in the fall of the Eastern Bloc has been greatly exaggerated.

Proving once and for all, that your understanding of modern history is limited to the Balkans, and casting that understanding into doubt.

78 posted on 06/08/2003 5:00:36 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: Notwithstanding
Gee, for a sec I thought you were saying the Catholic church was guilty of idolatry and false worship, something *I* didn't say, but *somehow* you read that into my comment. Isn't that just too funny!
79 posted on 06/08/2003 5:06:40 PM PDT by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: Lazamataz
Hey when you answer as the Admin Mod, you have to be logged in as him!! Or did you forget?!
80 posted on 06/08/2003 5:07:48 PM PDT by RedBloodedAmerican
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