The G-d of Israel vs. the Road Map: Which One Do You Choose?

The Temple Institute ^ | Received as e-mail 6/5/03 | Rabbi Chaim Richman

[Zionist Conspirator]

I know most people on this forum are secular economic libertarians and after that most are chr*stians of various sorts. But please allow me to use the occasion of Shavu`ot to insist that it isn't about politics, or "rights," or "freedom," or economics, or any other form of secular utopianism. It's really all about the One. And that One is HaShem.

I plead with all who read these words on this eve of Shavu`ot to at least give some consideration to something they probably never have before--that HaShem is G-d and the Torah His unsuperceded Word to mankind.

Please

[sangoo]

Right on my friend! I think that our President wants to honor God, but somehow has become blinded, or he has something up his sleave. We must never forget how much God loves that land and will not bless those who to not feel the same.

[onedoug]

Unless Bush knows this is going to fail, which would justify Israel finally unleashing the dogs of war, then he is as wrong in this as anything yet in his life.

[L,TOWM]

Be of good cheer, ZC. When the palis demonstrate to the world that they are unfit for autonomy, W will quietly tell Sharon that the gloves can come off. We have a nice big patch of land by the Tigris & Euphrates to "evacuate the arab palestinians from the combat zone created by the extremists" ready, and soon to be willing, to receive their "Arab Brothers".

Would'nt that be a nice irony? The Canaanites being exiled to Babylon?

[L,TOWM]

Everyone else keeps underestimating this President, and his administration. This action is needed now to keep Blair in the game, and to keep the eurotrash from screaming too loud when the Israelis get the word that they can play for keeps.

The palis are animals. They will not civilize themselves, and will soon (2005) start to get neutralized or exported to the Republic of Iraq.

What do think W meant when he said that Iraq is the key to middle eastern peace?

[Delbert]

Excellent Post. I think Bush knows that the Palis will never be able to reject terrorism. I find the comments about "this must be done now because reelection is just around the corner" to be a bit disturbing. Anyway...things are rolling right along, soon all eyes will be on the "burdensome stone".

[Zionist Conspirator]

Thanks to all of you!

As you know, one feeble and transparent excuse used by the "palaeos" to justify their hostility to Israel is domestic Jewish liberalism (one banned old-time FReeper even invoked Stephen Spielberg, despite the fact that Spielberg's Zionism, if existent at all, is very microscopic). These people are transparently dishonest, but nevertheless the domestic liberalism espoused by so many non-observant (and even by some Orthodox) Jews really is the biggest impediment to supporting Israel completely.

Here is part of a reply I posted to another thread:

Outside of the Will of G-d Jewish peoplehood has no meaning. Jewish peoplehood and its claims to 'Eretz Yisra'el must be within the context of the total Torah, and not picked out and given an alien secular, western-style nationalist meaning. Ironically, it is precisely because the US is a secular, religiously neutral country to whom Israel is just another nation that its president and government cannot endorse the true Torah position on the issue of 'Eretz Yisra'el and to whom it belongs. I hope the secular, liberal American Jewish community is proud of itself.

Shavu`ot sameach to the world!

[safisoft]

I plead with all who read these words on this eve of Shavu`ot to at least give some consideration to something they probably never have before--that HaShem is G-d and the Torah His unsuperceded Word to mankind.

Israel is not alone. We wait. We watch. We know that HaShem treasures His covenant with His people.

I have set watchmen on your walls, O Jerusalem; they shall never hold their peace day or night. You who make mention of the Lord, do not keep silent, And give Him no rest till He establishes and till He makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth. The Lord has sworn by His right hand and by the arm of His strength: “Surely I will no longer give your grain as food for your enemies; and the sons of the foreigner shall not drink your new wine, For which you have labored. But those who have gathered it shall eat it, and praise the Lord; those who have brought it together shall drink it in My holy courts.” Go through, Go through the gates! Prepare the way for the people; Build up, build up the highway! Take out the stones, Lift up a banner for the peoples!Isaiah 62:4-10

We know that there are blessings for true "peace-makers" - but their are only curses for those who divide the Land of HaShem:

For behold, in those days and at that time, qhen I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather all nations, and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; and I will enter into judgment with them there on account of My people, My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; they have also divided up My land. Joel 3:1-2
Yes, ZC, we celebrate today. We celebrate Shavuot to remember our G-d showed all the people of the world that He blesses those who seek Him with the blessings of Torah!

[safisoft]

Outside of the Will of G-d Jewish peoplehood has no meaning. Jewish peoplehood and its claims to 'Eretz Yisra'el must be within the context of the total Torah,

How right! Eretz Yisra'el is not "Jewish" land - it is HaShem's, and He has given it to Yisra'el as a stewardship. Those Jews willing to give up "land for peace" have something that is not theirs to give away - but like ungrateful children are "selling" a birthright.

[2timothy3.16]

And what about Isaiah chapter 53?

[Lijahsbubbe]

Israel does not need the world. The world needs Israel. By sacrificing Israel to keep peace in the world, the world will reap the very death and destruction it seeks to avoid.

[joesnuffy]

Given that once the so called nation of Palestine is established the UN will be the authority over
all that transpires..
Lets see who gets the Nobel Peace prize for this abomination...even Arafat got one of those

[Hyacinth Bucket]

Never forget that there are many Americans especially Evangelical Christians who stand in solidarity with the Jews and Israel.

The Jews are the chosen people because of God's promise to Abraham. If this were not true, there is no reason why a tiny nation about the size of New Jersey, continue to find itself to be in the center of the news and events.

Moreover, the Jews continue to be the object of hate not only by the Arabs and Muslims but even by people who have no reason to hate them. Call it crazy but the only explanation is that Satan is bent on destroying God's people and only God's sovereignty will be able to protect this nation and its people.

[Zionist Conspirator]

And what about Isaiah chapter 53?

You think the Prophets could (or did, or even wanted to) supercede the Torah?

Torah--written by G-d before the Creation and dictated by G-d to Moses letter for letter.
Nevi'im (Prophets)--written by the Prophets in their own words after witnessing Prophetic visions--a lower form of Divine revelation.
Ketuvim ("Hagiographa")--written by men under inspiration of Ruach HaQodesh--still lower form of Divine inspiration.
"New Testament"--the work of men!!!

Are you new around here or something?

[Radix]

I would say to this, pay attention to what they do, and not just what they say.

[Ms. AntiFeminazi]

In short, for all who have not yet read the Road Map: It calls for the end of the "occupation" of 1967, meaning a withdrawal to the Green Line, including parts of Jerusalem and the Golan Heights; a full-fledged, armed Palestinian state within this entire area, and with it, the ethnic cleansing of Jews; and international supervision of the IDF's activities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza.

Can you please post the exact text of the Road Map that states this here?

By the year's end, the Quartet will declare recognition of a "temporary" Palestinian state, and by the end of 2005, they will declare a permanent state with permanent borders. If Israel hesitates to advance this plan, the Security Council is empowered to pass a resolution in accordance with the United Nations Charter that calls for implementing a resolution by force – beginning with sanctions and ending with military intervention, Iraq-style.

If memory serves correctly, Iraq-style would mean NO enforcement of any Security Council resolutions. Bush has already declared, by word and deed, the UN irrelevant.

"This moment is both an opportunity and a test for all parties in the Middle East: an opportunity to lay the foundations for future peace; a test to show who is serious about peace and who is not. The choice here is stark and simple. The Bible says, "I have set before you life and death; therefore, choose life." The time has arrived for everyone in this conflict to choose peace, and hope, and life."
President Bush Calls for New Palestinian Leadership

Deuteronomy 30:11-20 (NIV)
¹¹Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. ¹²It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?"
¹³Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?"
¹⁴No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
¹⁵See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. ¹⁶For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the Land you are entering to possess.
¹⁷But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, ¹⁸I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
¹⁹This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live ²⁰and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The Palestinians have a choice to make.

[Ms. AntiFeminazi]

Ketuvim ("Hagiographa")--written by men under inspiration of Ruach HaQodesh--still lower form of Divine inspiration. "New Testament"--the work of men!!!

Isaiah is Old Testament, prophecy, yet you recognize He who was rejected as New Testament. Interesting.

John 1: ¹In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ²He was with God in the beginning.

¹⁴The Word became flesh and lived for a while among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

¹⁶From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. ¹⁷For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. ¹⁸No one has ever seen God, but God the only Son, who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

God is good.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Isaiah is Old Testament, prophecy, yet you recognize He who was rejected as New Testament. Interesting.

No, but I recognize that most people interpret the "suffering servant" as referring to J*sus. I was pointing out that the "new testament" invoked implicitly by timothy as this prophecy's fulfillment is, unlike the TaNa"KH, the work of men (like the Qur'an and the "holy books" of all other false religions).

What would be interesting is if the chr*stians of the world, especially the Bible-believing ones, would drop their assumption of "progressive revelation" with its required "affirmation of the consequent" fallacy, and allow the higher revelation to infallibly interpret the lower, instead of vice versa.

[BenR2]

"New Testament"--the work of men!!!

///
We now know that you have (spiritual) blinders on. (Oh, you can read about them in the New Testament that you just pooh-poohed.)

On the other hand, maybe you shouldn't bother: You are spiritually blind. Isaiah well said about folks not unlike yourself: "Having eyes they see not." (Hey, you just said the nevi'im were inspired!)

P.S. I believe the Bible clearly teaches that Israel has a right to the land, but won't receive it fully until they acknowledge Yeshua for Who He rightfully is! It sort of rhymes with "Messiah.")

[johniegrad]

This is going to turn into an ugly thread between peoples that are true allies. I don't like to see this. We shouldn't attempt to alienate each other in our times of need.