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Tory poll surge as trust in Blair collapses
Daily Telegraph

Posted on 06/01/2003 5:57:41 AM PDT by may18

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1 posted on 06/01/2003 5:57:41 AM PDT by may18
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To: may18
Those of us on the right who opposed the war in Iraq warned from the get-go that the proponents of the invasion were not being forthright. There were a variety of agendas at work which did not see the light of day, and the stated reasons for the invasion were mere pretexts. The problem with this type of leadership is that it, if exposed, reveals a duplicity which most people find repellent.

The philosophical guru of the neocons (Strauss), was a proponent of the "noble lie" theory of leadership (ie: the elite must tell necessary lies to the masses to achieve desirable goals). I don't think that this style of leadership will stand the test of time.

2 posted on 06/01/2003 6:04:12 AM PDT by quebecois
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To: may18
The Tories' recent pledge to abolish student tuition fees appears to be having a positive influence. Their proposals stand in contrast to Labour's plans to allow universities to charge up to £3,000 a year for courses.

Great. Beat labour by outspending them. That'll do it. /sarcasm.

3 posted on 06/01/2003 6:06:07 AM PDT by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: Rodney King
nope thats not the policy

tories plan to scrap stupid courses that arent worth the paper they are writen on. ATM thousands of students are doing worthless hippy courses that are worthless. They will be scrapped, allowing more funding on usefull courses, engineering, mathematics etc
4 posted on 06/01/2003 6:10:06 AM PDT by may18
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To: may18
Oh, thanks. Yet, I still think that students should pay for their courses. It's not right to tax a 20 year old farmer so that some brat who is going to make plenty throughout his life can go to college for free.
5 posted on 06/01/2003 6:11:30 AM PDT by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: quebecois
Still think we won't find those WMD, don't you?

Patience is a sadly lacking commodity among quite a few people.

6 posted on 06/01/2003 6:13:51 AM PDT by Miss Marple
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To: quebecois
The European Union is far more of an issue over there than the war in Iraq. This is where Tony Blair has lost of lot of his trust.
7 posted on 06/01/2003 6:15:36 AM PDT by SamAdams76 (Back in boot camp! 264 (-26))
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To: Miss Marple
When we do announce that we have found them, you can guarantee that he will claim that we planted them.
8 posted on 06/01/2003 6:15:46 AM PDT by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: Miss Marple; quebecois; Rodney King
I agree with the calls for patience. Clearly, the Iraqis were so deviously clever in their concealment of the WMDs - despite their astounding incompetence in every other endeavor they undertook - that even they couldn't find them to deploy during the recently concluded war...
9 posted on 06/01/2003 6:39:22 AM PDT by AntiGuv (™)
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To: AntiGuv
We'll just have to wait and see, won't we?

I think it amazing that some people think that both Blair and Bush, with their intelligence services, and their entire government, would manufacture a reason and not one dissenter would spill the beans. We had enough reason to go into Iraq without stating the WMD case...harboring terrorists, threats to neighbors, etc. Why make up something that would be easily disproven after the war?

10 posted on 06/01/2003 6:43:48 AM PDT by Miss Marple
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To: Rodney King
"When we do announce that we have found them, you can guarantee that he will claim that we planted them."

Defying all logic - because if we were going to plant them we certainly would have "found" them much sooner than this.
11 posted on 06/01/2003 6:44:49 AM PDT by Let's Roll (And those that cried Appease! Appease! are hanged by those they tried to please!")
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To: Miss Marple; Rodney King; quebecois
Prior to the war, I had no doubt that WMDs would be found - in fact, I fully expected them to get utilized during the war itself. The fact of the matter, however, is that the prewar WMD thesis is strictly defunct. There's simply no way to pretend otherwise at this juncture.. (Whether there will be genuine political ramifications is another question altogether, and I'm doubtful there will be for various reasons.)

Whatever the case, here's a concise summary of the prewar thesis as posted elsewhere:

Saddam Hussein had extensive, active, advanced, clandestine chemical, biological and nuclear weapons programs. UN inspectors couldn't find WMDs because they were inept, or corrupt, or because Saddam played the shell game so masterfully. US intelligence pinpointed dozens of high-value target sites, hundreds of intermediate-value sites and thousands of low-value sites. Chemical and perhaps biological weapons were deployed to commanders in the field, who had orders to use them against invading Coalition forces. Special Forces teams were dropping in to secure and neutralize high-value sites in advance of the ground assault, with high-tech analytic Mobile Exploitation Teams (MET's) close on their heels.

Anyone who would claim that this was not the impression created in the buildup to war is a dissembler, IMHO; anyone who can now seriously suggest that anything remotely resembling that scenario could have been the case needs to check in with their nearest reality ASAP...

These were the claims as I distinctly recall them: 15,000 to 30,000 chemical munitions; thousands of tons of weaponized chemical arms; hundreds of gallons of biological agents; a reconstituted nuclear program with procurement of uranium & missile cores; a fleet of remote-guide WMD drones; dozens of mobile biochem laboratories; dozens or hundreds of Scud missile systems.

Where is all this extensive panoply of prohibited, unconventional armament? Where are all the scientists & engineers & military personnel & just random facility workers that put them together and maintained them? Where are the facilities themselves? Did all this just vanish into the desert? Somewhere? Somehow?

If you want my personal opinion, our intelligence services - and by extension Bush and Blair - were misled by the Iraqi opposition groups. I stated a number of times prior the war that these were the people least credible in their claims about the Baathist regime and Iraqi sentiments. They had a vested interest in encouraging the war which would see them returned into the locus of power in Iraq and they played their cards to the hilt. Of course, they found a receptive audience willing to accept whatever casus belli they were fortuitously provided.

That's what the evidence at this juncture points toward and that's the inescapable conclusion, in my view. I have no problem if I'm eventually proven incorrect in this view. We shall see. This issue needs to get dealt with on FR sooner or later because it's not going to go away...

12 posted on 06/01/2003 7:06:51 AM PDT by AntiGuv (™)
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To: AntiGuv
Do you honestly think that Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld, as well as the intelligence services, would base all their decisions on the word of people with vested interests?

I think if you are smart enough to realize this, they are as well.

I did not expect to find WMD immediately. I also think that those chemicals were not used because we did a good job at warning the underlings that they would be held accountable, plus Saddam thought we would bomb for weeks before we sent our land forces in.

As I said...patience.

13 posted on 06/01/2003 7:13:35 AM PDT by Miss Marple
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To: Miss Marple
So far, I think we've searched approximately 250 sites out of over 900 sites. You're right, "patience" is required.
14 posted on 06/01/2003 7:16:58 AM PDT by onyx (Name an honest democrat? I can't either!)
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To: AntiGuv
Where is all this extensive panoply of prohibited, unconventional armament? Where are all the scientists & engineers & military personnel & just random facility workers that put them together and maintained them? Where are the facilities themselves? Did all this just vanish into the desert? Somewhere? Somehow?

Saddam Hussein's government had the burden of proof. They had to prove they no longer had these weapons as a conditon of the cease fire agreement ending the first Gulf War. Instead his government thwarted inspections.

Too bad if Saddam had destroyed the stockpiles; he refused to live up to the cease fire agreement and give unfettered access to inspectors. Failing to live up to cease fire agreements or peace treaties is a casus belli. Bush and Blair had the cojones to call Saddam on his lack of compliance unlike Chamberlain and Daladier who allowed Hilter to repeatedly violate the Treaty of Versailles. I am not conviced Saddam destroyed everything. Bioweapon seed stocks are not bulky. All the documents recording how to make these weapons could easily be converted to just a few CDs or DVDs and the original paper documents destroyed. Its a problem of a very small needle in a very large haystack.

15 posted on 06/01/2003 8:08:08 AM PDT by Paleo Conservative
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To: may18
Can someone fill out a play card for me? What is the difference between Tories and Labour?
16 posted on 06/01/2003 9:00:19 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: Rodney King
When we do announce that we have found them, you can guarantee that he will claim that we planted them.<> Juan Williams seemed, on Fox News Sunday today, to be suggesting that that is what he would say.
17 posted on 06/01/2003 9:09:11 AM PDT by aristeides
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To: quebecois
I don't think that this style of leadership will stand the test of time.

For good or for ill, depending on one's point of view, it has indeed stood the test of time from Caesar to the present.

18 posted on 06/01/2003 9:18:16 AM PDT by AlbionGirl (A kite flies highest against the wind, not with it. - Winston Churchill)
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To: taxcontrol
they believe in less taxation
less control by central goverment (and more control by local business)
are generally far more eurosceptic
and believe that healthy business's fuel the country
19 posted on 06/01/2003 10:06:03 AM PDT by may18
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To: AlbionGirl
"For good or ill....it has stood the test of time from Caesar to the present"

A couple of points:

1) First, this style of leadership deteriorates into despotism (Augustus was OK...but Caligula and Nero soon followed). Hardly something to look forward to.

2) My main gripes about this war boil down to two issues of governance that really raise my hackles:

a) Dishonesty: We were manipulated into this war with a series of lies by various elites who had ulterior motives. The two big motives that were used (WMD and the link to bin Laden's terrorist network) were largely bogus. The elites who pushed for the war knew this at the time (I'll give Bush the benefit of the doubt...he was probably gullible rather than consciously dishonest).

b) Special interest manipulation: I am sick and tired of seeing my government engage in actions and policies that benefit powerful interests while ignoring the interests of broad middle america. This issue pops up time and again, from immigration and government spending to affirmative action and foreign policy. The elites in this country no longer have a sense of stewardship towards the broad middle classes of america. They respond mostly to their own immediate self-interest and those of various influential special interest groups.

20 posted on 06/01/2003 11:35:52 AM PDT by quebecois
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