New study pits Neurologists vs. Chiropractors

BostonGlobe ^ | 5/27/2003 | Stephen Smith

[Old Professer]

I'm allergic to corn.

[Old Professer]

Far Right, I hope.

[chiromommy]

I would be happy to post a summary of the number of hours we spend studying each subject, etc. (Which, by the way, only included 3 credit hours on marketing in my case, as has been discussed so much) A CV would be more of a summary of work experience, volunteer activities, etc. and would not be as relevant to this discussion. I notice that no one has yet been brave enough to actually reveal their perception of our training.

[CARepubGal]

I had the same experience. It was a waste of time and money. I will not make the mistake of going to a chiro again.

[TomB]

What is the error in that philosopy?

Well, to start with, that somehow a pinched or irritated spinal nerve will somehow affect the function of the body's organs.

. It also didn't have to rely on a system of remuneration designed for, and heavily influenced by, another branch of healthcare while it was developing. The biggest difference between you and them is time.

So "big medicine" is preventing Chiropractic researchers from conducting research into the effectiveness of Chiro? Sounds like a cop out to me.

[TomB]

Far Right, I hope.

Extremely.

[Mamzelle]

A competent PT has no difficulty with that. Any "risk" involved is usually due to the part of a reckless PT.)))

I'd say that there will be some sort of risk involved even when competence is assured. Adverse outcomes are always possible. Risk can only be managed, not eliminated.

[TomB]

I notice that no one has yet been brave enough to actually reveal their perception of our training.

And I've noticed that nobody has yet been brave enough to describe exactly what a chiropractic subluxation is. Perhaps you could enlighten us?

[aruanan]

Indistinguishable to whom?

If A does the same as B under the same circumstances then A is the functional equivalent of B no matter what A believes or whether B protests.

[oceanperch]

You have mail from a family that respects your field.

[Tumbleweed_Connection]

Today we have immigrant physicians willing to accept the scraps off the floor government throws them (which MDs no longer can). A lot of these people are practicing only because they are agreeable to the rates. The system must improve.

There are many areas of chiropractics to appreciate yet downsides as well. In each of these cases, who knows either what the pre-existing artery condition was or the extent of the cervical manipulation?

[WVNan]

Welcome to FR. I know your training was not a six-week course in "How to crunch bones and scam the public." Sometimes it seems to me that one of the few things I have control over is my choice of health-care or the refusal thereof. It has been my experience that chemical poisons called "medicine" has caused more harm than good. I haven't had an antibiodic in 25 years and I almost never have a cold, and have never had the flu. Why? Because I take vitimin C with the first hint of a virus and it knocks it out of the park. I refuse to have a mammagram because I'm convinced they cause breast cancer. Why would I want to subject my breast to that kind of trauma? My family doc. thinks I'm a kook and I drive him up the wall. I laugh and tell him I will sign a paper promising not to sue him if I get cancer. Now, as a ciro, what is the best thing I can do for the pinched nerve in my lower back? The blasted thing is keeping me from mowing my grass, and I have no patience for it. No, I don't plan on seeing a doctor. You may have guessed, I don't like going to doctors. I have trust issues. LOL.

[chiromommy]

In todays' world, you're right to have trust issues! I can't tell you exactly what to do, but I would say that you should see SOMEONE about your "pinched nerve". Why do you call it that - what does it feel like? There are lots of tests that can determine if it's something serious, like a disc issue, or something more easily treatable, like an alignment issue or muscle spasm causing your symptoms. A DO or chiro can do those tests if you are wary of MDs. However, if it is a disc issue, you will need to: 1. have an MRI to see exactly what's going on, and/or 2. see an orthopedic surgeon. Without examining you, of course, I can't give you any more specific advice. If you choose to go to a chiro, try to find a Chiropractic Neurologist. If you want, send me a private message and I can see if there's one in your area.

[chiromommy]

Definitions of subluxation are as varied as chiropractors, which is part of the problem. Our schools can't even agree on what we should be taught, there are more "Chiropractic Organizations" than you can count on one hand, controversy everywhere. There's a saying in chiropractic: "If you get two chiropractors together, you'll get at least three opinions." Sad but true. No wonder the public and other healthcare professionals don't know what to think!

All I can do is give you my definition of subluxation, which is most definitely different from Dorland's or whatever medical dictionary you use. A chiropractic subluxation is an area of bony malposition which results in altered function, including muscular imbalance and decreased nerve flow. Here goes the neurology behind it: the zygapophyseal joints in the spine and the joints at the Atlanto-occipital and Atlanto-axial interfaces contain the largest concentration of proprioceptors and joint mechanoreceptors in the body. When these joints do not move properly (due to minor malposition), the normal proprioceptive input to the brain is reduced. This decrease in proprioception can result in a variety of cord-level and eventually cortical manifestations. Are you familiar with the Pain-Gate Theory? Pain fibers are only 10% of the afferent fibers coming into the cord at any given level, and their signals are overridden by the proprioceptive input from the body. When this proprioception is decreased, such as with subluxation, the CNS is free to perceive the pain. When subluxations are corrected, with specific chiropractic adjustments, the joint mechanoreceptors are able to fire again and "gate" out the pain. This is the reason for the sometimes-immediate pain relief experienced by chiropractic patients. However, since muscles and bones work together, repeated corrective adjustments are necessary until the bony misalignments stay corrected. This is where the old "once you go to a chiropractor, you always have to go" comes from. The body has to relearn proper position - it's a training and adaptation process. A lot like rehab, just at a very specific and small area. Care should taper off as the body adapts and maintains the correction. You asked for a drink, and I turned on the fire hose -- sorry about that, it's just a complex issue, not easily "defined" in a short sweet sentence or two. That's part of the problem with chiropractic, it's difficult to define, which makes it seem unscientific. I prefer the neuro route, because it makes sense to my logical mind to draw out the pathways and reflexes, to know "why". Others like to talk about "Innate Intelligence" and healing flow. Whatever works for them, I guess. Despite all of the many ways of explaining and practicing, I know that Chiropractic works. We are intricately designed creatures, and the body is capable of some miraculous things if it is free to function properly.

[chiromommy]

Let me start by saying that I don't personally use muscle tests, but we were taught about them in school. Sounds like they were trying to use muscle testing to determine what was going on in your body. Did they mention anything about "AK" or Applied Kinesiology? That's what it sounds like to me.

Here goes the rather voodoo-sounding explanation: they were trying to "ask" the body what is going on, maybe by having you hold something (a vitamin or food), or by testing muscles that somehow correlate to organs, etc. The theory is, you test a muscle, if it's strong, you apply different stimuli, like "hold this vitamin" to see if it stays strong or goes weak. Same applies for starting with a weak muscle and testing to see what makes it go strong. You would then avoid/consume whatever the testing showed, or work on whatever organ or gland showed up as a "problem".

It's out there, I know. That's why I don't do it. I'm not saying it couldn't work, I just personally don't believe in it. That's part of the problem with chiropractic today -- there are so many different people doing so many different things, but all are called Chiropractors.

BTW, I signed up for a FR login on Friday, just before my first post in this thread. Is there some info page that says I joined later??? I'm obviously a newbie, so I don't know how everyone keeps looking this up (someone on another thread mentioned me joining Saturday...)??? I'm sure you have a name for people who just nose around but never join -- I've been one of them for about a year, but couldn't contain myself when this thread popped up.

[KneelBeforeZod]

I know an old guy who got NO help for some shoulder pain from MDs, but a chiropractor did something that fixed him up...

HOWEVER chiropracters give themselves a bad name by setting up booths at the famers market, summer fairs, ski shows, etc etc etc. When you sell your practice the same way that people are selling ginsu knives and timeshares, of course people are going to wonder if you are a hack.

[Woahhs]

Well, to start with, that somehow a pinched or irritated spinal nerve will somehow affect the function of the body's organs.

Okay. So we're talking physiology, not philosophy. Simple enough mistake. Do you have a problem with the concept of "refered pain" What is the substantive conceptual difference. If medical science had mapped the nervous system to the extent that it could invalidate the Chiropractic claims I feel fairly secure that it would have done so by now.

In light of that inability to disprove, along with the empirical evidence for its efficacy, all the poo-pooing rings pretty hollow.

So "big medicine" is preventing Chiropractic researchers from conducting research into the effectiveness of Chiro? Sounds like a cop out to me.

So who funds and does the research for "big medicine" as you put it? General Practitioners?

Sounds like prevarication to me.

[chiromommy]

You keep harping on research. I will give you that Chiropractic as a profession is at least 50 years behind in our research. However to say that there is no scientific basis for what we do and no research to support it is sheer ignorance. Do a Medline search for "Chiropractic and efficacy" and see what you get. Some of it is about the profession and education, etc., but there is a great deal of research on chiropractic effectiveness and methodology. We have peer-reviewed, indexed journals, just like the mighty allopathic community. We are behind, yes, but we are working on it. The early chiros went on blind faith and the success of their own patient care. They didn't have time for research, they were fighting for our survival as a profession. It's pretty hard to perform research when you keep getting thrown in jail by the local MDs for "practicing medicine without a license"! All of that is over now, at least in physical practice, though obviously not in spirit. Thanks to them, modern chiropractors can pursue the research that should've been done long ago. We're playing catch-up, but don't dare say we're not doing the work at all!

[Woahhs]

If A does the same as B under the same circumstances then A is the functional equivalent of B no matter what A believes or whether B protests.

Well there you go! A does things different from B so your point is moot.

[CARDINALRULES]

There is a glich (or it could be done on purpose--who knows) of some sort where the "join" date is actually the next day.
So even though you know you joined on Friday the 30th the system shows it as the 31st.

Not that big of deal, most don't notice it unless looking at the dates of disruptors.

To see yours, or anyone's "joined on date" all you need to do is hold your mouse over the screenname (the one after "by") and a box will show the date.(on mine it is a yellow box but it might differ for others.)
Can also click on the names and go to the profile page and see the date there and any other info the user may have added.

We call them "lurkers". :`)