New study pits Neurologists vs. Chiropractors

BostonGlobe ^ | 5/27/2003 | Stephen Smith

[Trust but Verify]

What do they term an unnecesary surgery? Plastic surgery? Surgery demanded by the patient? How is that determined? How many of the people would die without the surgery? And 35-45% misdiagnosed illnesseS? Hmm. Something is fishy. Something is very fishy.

[DensaMensa]

}I have never been to a chiropractor and probably never will. I think they're just one level above quacks.

That says everything about you we will ever need to know.

[TomB]

. Once again, from JAMA...48,000 people die each year from unnecessary surgeries (from a Johns Hopkins study). In addition, 35 to 45% of DOCTOR's diagnoses were proven INCORRECT when autopsies were done. (I would assume surgeries were being performed by doctors.)

The reason I keep harping on the source for your information is because the "Johns Hopkins Study" was actually a letter to the editor in that issue of JAMA. Since it was a letter, written by a single author, not Johns Hopkins, it wasn't subject to peer review. The numbers you put forth, while repeated consistently on chiro and natural health webiste, have been shown to be way off.

Here is an actual study in JAMA that shows the real error rate is more like 5 to 15,000 a year. Quite a difference.

Estimating Hospital Deaths Due to Medical Errors

Conclusions:

Medical errors are a major concern regardless of patients' life expectancies, but our study suggests that previous interpretations of medical error statistics are probably misleading. Our data place the estimates of preventable deaths in context, pointing out the limitations of this means of identifying medical errors and assessing their potential implications for patient outcomes.

[TomB]

This information is not from a website...it is from the ACTUAL publication.

Funny you had the ACTUAL publication in your hand and didn't notice the article you quoted wasn't a study.

[DensaMensa]

And how many people have you healed?

[who knows what evil?]

Are you stating that the articles and materials published in the Journal of the American Medical Association are unreliable? A heck of a lot of doctors and others in the medical community read that publication, and take it as gospel. With regards to unnecessary surgeries, I do know of a woman who was scheduled for a hysterectomy based on an "odd" echo appearing in a cyst appearing on an ultrasound. The week before her surgery was scheduled, SHE asked the physician to run another ultrasound. While in a "prep conference" for her surgery, the ultrasound results were delivered. The "echo" was gone...the reason for surgery had disappeared...the surgery cancelled. One would think that might qualify as "unnecessary surgery". Bottom line: people need to be more involved in their health care. Question your doctor...question your chiropractor. I would certainly agree that there are "quacks" or "the unqualified" in BOTH ranks. I have other work to do...a good evening to all.

[Dengar01]

I went to a chiropractor for a view months and the guy got greedy making up new BS as to why I needed my back cracked. I quit going after realizing he was worse than a lawyer.

[DensaMensa]

}I have run across some chiropractors whom I wouldn't recommend to a patient. But some D.C.s }are very good healers.

I was rear-ended many years ago. After endless medical tests I was put on heavy duty medications for 15 years. With much reluctance I went to a Chiropractor. 2 weeks later I was medication free. It's pretty hard to beat that!

So I could readily say "I have run across some Medical Doctors whom I wouldn't recommend to a patient. But some MDs are very good healers. {ggg}.

[HardStarboard]

I have gravitated to the "NUCCA" branch of chiropractic for congenital back problems.

NUCCA, "Neck and Upper Cranial Chiropractic Assoc." is a much less strenuous adjustment than that practiced by the major branch of chiropractic - Parker method (I think).

It keeps me able to walk with freedom - when my Dr. adjusts my neck ever so gently, I feel a warm sensation down my back and right leg, and my rt. ankle (where the problem show up) loosens up.

If you suffer from any kind of back pain it is worth checking with a NUCCA chiropractor. They are hard to find -only about 400 in the US.

An interesting note, mine has treated a Dr., the head of surgery at the major surgical hospital in town (a major west coast city). Another note, they take x-rays before they work on you, and if your problem is not addressable by their techniques, they won't work on you.

[DensaMensa]

}...There were however marketing classes and business orientation seminars.

That sounds like the typical Medical Doctors "Professional In-Service Training Seminar" usually held on board a cruise ship or at some exotic global spa. You aren't naive ,are you?

[TomB]

Are you stating that the articles and materials published in the Journal of the American Medical Association are unreliable? A heck of a lot of doctors and others in the medical community read that publication, and take it as gospel.

Ooooops. Looks like you got taken in by an "alternative" health website. I've taken some time to look at a few of them, and they print those numbers verbatim, without mentioning that the "study" is acutally nothing of the sort.

If we are to follow your logic, we should take my study as gospel because it was in JAMA, was a "real" study, and was published after Dr. Starfield's commentary.

Bottom line: people need to be more involved in their health care. Question your doctor...question your chiropractor.

But most importantly....QUESTION YOUR WEBSITE!

[DensaMensa]

}These are deaths that occurred due to ERROR, not malicious intent.

The end result is the same. Why do you suppose Doctors have their own suites, often entire floors of Doctors suites at hospitals? Don't they trust the care the rest of us get?

[friendly]

I was rearended last year in a minor collision and I got no less than 15 letters in the mail from attorneys and a few from chiropractors. One letter was from a person who is both an attorney AND a chiropractor.

State laws are routinely ignored by the out of the control, unregulated lawyer industry.

Shysters from Hillary on down to your 15 local ambulance chasers sincerely believe they are above the law.

[DensaMensa]

}all chiros that I have deposed are quacks

I have sued (and collected from) more Lawyers than Doctors. Guess who I regard as quacks?

[friendly]

As I wrote clearly, marketing classes and business orientation seminars were part of the curriculum of the chiropractic college, in classes for undergraduate students. Lets not be so dense and Maureen Dowd-like in misrepresenting my observations.

[BansheeBill]

I have a friend who owns a sporting good store in New York. In the 80's he had a couple of just out of high school kids working for him who tried a couple of night courses at a local community college but due to lack of interest and effort, flunked most of them, and then eventually quit taking courses. They continued to work at his store as retail clerks. I got to know them on some ski strips the store sponsored. They were not even moderately intelligent. Their high school careers had been decidely middle of the road. Eventually I found that both had left employment at my friends store, when they were accepted at a local chiropractic college and they both somehow managed to graduate.

I would not even let either of these guys do a tune-up on my car, yet alone manipulate my spine. From what my friend tells me they are making a living as chiropracters, but are not making a good living. There are just too many of them near where he lives.

[kstewskis]

Physical therapy has some risks involved, too.

May I ask that you be more specific?

And please don't confuse chiropractic with physical therapy. They are two entirely different professions.

[TomB]

As I wrote clearly, marketing classes and business orientation seminars were part of the curriculum of the chiropractic college, in classes for undergraduate students. Lets not be so dense and Maureen Dowd-like in misrepresenting my observations.

Yes, there is quite a difference between practicing doctors taking time out of their schedules to attend courses to help with marketing or office bookkeeping, and class after class during school in marketing.

In all honesty, I wish my school had had something on the business side of practice. But some of the stories coming out of places like the decredentialed Life Chiropractic sound like the marketing side was STRESSED.

[gitmo]

Is the relief temporary, requiring periodic treatments, or was it a one-time treatment that has lasted 5 years?

[Trust but Verify]

That says everything about you we will ever need to know.

Really? And what would that be? That I'm smart enough to know that chiropractors don't 'cure' anything?