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To: wideawake
I don't think I'm being euphemistic at all - I'm trying to read Scripture correctly, and I think there is a real Scriptural difficulty regarding the manner in which Mary could have already been full of grace before the Savior was born.

Ofcourse, because the RCC has crafted a totally different definition of the word grace. Soothingdave described it to me in detail, I think it was him. Grace was merit that you earned based on works, like communion, rosary, works etc. You need a certain amount to be saved. It is also used up when you goof up. This is not the biblical definition of the word.

126 posted on 05/29/2003 10:03:21 AM PDT by biblewonk (Spose to be a Chrissssstian)
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To: biblewonk
Of course, because the RCC has crafted a totally different definition of the word grace.

I'd need your definition to be sure, but I don't think they are "totally different".

Grace was merit that you earned based on works, like communion, rosary, works etc.

Hmmm. This is a bit muddled.

I will try to explain succinctly, citing my sources.

(1) Grace is not merit. It is, literally from Scripture, God's favor.

(2) Grace cannot be earned by actions - to quote from the official Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 875: "No one can bestow grace on himself; it must be given and offered." You can't say: "Okay, God, I did this. I automatically get some grace (i.e. Your favor)." God bestows grace on whom He wills and as He wills it.

To quote the Decree on Justification of the Council of Trent:

This Synod furthermore declares, that in adults, the beginning of the said Justification is to be derived from the prevenient grace of God, through Jesus Christ, that is to say, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits existing on their parts, they are called; that so they, who by sins were alienated from God, may be disposed through His quickening and assisting grace, to convert themselves to their own justification, by freely assenting to and co-operating with that said grace: in such sort that, while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight.

The main distinction here between Catholic doctrine and Reformed doctrine is the assertion that God's grace is freely offered and can be either rejected or accepted. Both Luther (implicitly) and Calvin (explicitly) held that God's grace is irresistible.

You need a certain amount to be saved.

There are no "amounts" of grace. You are either in God's favor or you are not.

It is also used up when you goof up.

God's grace is never used up. But Catholics believe that when we knowingly and with malice aforethought sin against God, we reject His grace. His grace is there - but we have refused it and "returned to our vomit" so to speak.

When the person you spoke to perhaps described different kinds of grace, I think it is a more accurate representation of Catholic teaching to say that God's grace works on us in different ways because we are created beings. The three main ways are the way God's grace prepares us for justification (prevenient grace), the way God's grace justifies us (sanctifying grace) and the way God's grace sanctifies us (actual grace). I will cite the Decree of the Council of Trent again to substantiate that this is the official Catholic position.

On the matter of works-righteousness:

Canon 1: If any one says, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

On prevenient grace:

Canon 3: If any one says, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

On sanctifying grace:

from Chapter VII: Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.

On actual grace:

Canon 22: If any one says, that the justified, either is able to persevere, without the special help of God, in the justice received; or that, with that help, he is not able; let him be anathema.

You wrote:

This is not the biblical definition of the word.

I think it is. I think it is the only way to reconcile Paul's claim that salvation comes by grace through faith and not the works of the law, and yet that the faithful are to work out their own salvation in fear and trembling.

We need God's grace to have faith. We need God's grace to be justified. We need God's grace to be sanctified.

127 posted on 05/29/2003 10:58:01 AM PDT by wideawake (Support our troops and their Commander-in-Chief)
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