Bondage of the Will

Internet search "Bondage of the Will" | J. I. Packer and O.R. Johnston

[Dahlseide]

The above is stolen from an internet search, I did not delete any of the info, i.e. see the quoted price etc. My only criteria was to capture the preface/translation by J. I. Packer and O.R. Johnston

[watchin]

So are you saying that others, having no free will, cannot now choose to agree with you ... or that if we were to be persuaded by your argument and agree with your doctrine, it would do us no good, since that would be "works"?

The point of your post seems to be that 1)nobody can, by an act of the will, please God and 2)anyone who disagrees with you is therefore wrong.

When I put those together, you post seems entirely pointless.

[watchin]

1 John 2:2
²And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Timothy 2:3-4
³ For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; ⁴Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
⁹The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Luther was an important figure. Where he and the Bible diverge, though, I'll follow the Bible.

[MHGinTN]

In the summer of 1971, I bowed my head and thanked the Lord for dying on that cross for me. I stood before a congregation of people, some of whom I knew from childhood but hadn't seen in more than a decade, and stated clearly that if one will not profess openly belief in the Savior, He could not stand before God in Heaven to speak out for them. I still believe that. I am assured that my acceptance of God's Grace in Christ has put my eternal destiny in His hands ... and there are no surer hands to which I can commend my spirit. Nothing can stand against His Will, His Will be done.

It is not by accident that the altar of incense was placed squarely in front of the drape separating the Holy Place from The Holy of Holies, for the altar of incense in the Tabernacle represents the will of the individual soul and to face that altar the knee must be bowed before the Holy of Holies. Once you bow to His Grace in Christ, He, not you, is responsible for your eternal destiny.

[watchin]

"the altar of incense in the Tabernacle represents the will of the individual soul"

Interesting concept. Do you have any scriptural support for such an assertion?

Until I see a scriptural link between the altar of incense and the will of the individual, I'll assume that this is just another example (be it Catholic, Lutheran, or Calvinist) of making scripture fit doctrine, rather than the other way around.

I would think a better case could be made for linking incense to prayer.

Luke 1:10
¹⁰And the whole multitude of the people were praying without at the time of incense.

Revelation 5:8
⁸And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours (i.e. incense; the KJV translates the same Greek word inconsistently), which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 8:3-4
³And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. ⁴And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.

[watchin]

Looking once again at your post, I'm confused. I'm not sure which side you're on in this free will debate, or if you're intentionally trying to "split the difference" in the name of peace.

So ... are you for freewill ...

I am assured that my acceptance of God's Grace in Christ has put my eternal destiny in His hands

... or against it?

Nothing can stand against His Will, His Will be done

Again, are you for it ...

Once you bow to His Grace in Christ...

... or against it?

He, not you, is responsible for your eternal destiny.

[William Terrell]

However, freewill is an observable thing. It exists and is seen and used by everyone everyday.

[watchin]

Psalm 141:2
² Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.

[MHGinTN]

I'm not in a debate. I had a free will, to choose to accept God's Grace in Christ or not. When I accepted, it became His promise to keep me that went into effect regarding my eternal destiny. The where/when that the offer of His Grace is made is up to Him. We best not limit God's power or Grace with our imaginings which limit us.

[watchin]

Nice reply. I agree.

The gospel is simple enough for anyone to enter the kingdom, yet complex enough that none of us can understand it completely.

Thank God it is by grace, rather than by knowledge, that we are saved.

Most of the "debates" are in areas beyond our grasp, and any effort to oversimplify ultimately distorts the gospel.

[Dahlseide]

I'm not in a debate with you or anyone. I posted because I hoped for a discussion that would help me, now maybe you also, understand the meaning of "free will" as it applies to salvation.

It does not aid my understanding to state that Martin Luther, myself or you, or anyone who states they are a Christian, simply say Where he and the Bible diverge, though, I'll follow the Bible.

A couple of years ago the topic Free Will occupied many threads. Some believed it got rather acrimonious, myself included. However the topic, as stated in the post, is important to the point that Luther thought it was at the heart of the gospel. .

Back then P-Marlowe asked me about my experience and I replied that I became a Calvinist after I was unknowingly already a Calvinist. I described an image that I heard during a sermon that completed my understanding of my salvation. The image was simply this: Picture an arch over heaven, on the earthward side the inscription on the arch reads “whosoever may ….” And on the heavenward side looking back (post salvation) it reads “chosen from ….”

The image gave me a perfect way to describe for myself and anyone already saved, how it all happened. So it was God all along, even though I had no idea then, or experientially now, that God was (yes) forcing me, through his marvelous Grace, to the heavenward side of the arch.

As an aside, please do not dismiss the above as “he is just stating Lutheran doctrine”, my guess is that more Lutherans agree with you than me.

Should this post interest anyone I am very willing to keep it alive, there is a whole lot more to be said about the topic Bondage of the Will

[Dahlseide]

It certainly seems so to you & me until we realize, post salvation, that we were chosen from the ..... Subsequently, that in spite of our post salvation knowlege that we are born through the sin of Adam to be sinful & unclean, God through His Grace elected us to salvation.

I liken it to the dog who has no idea, without (ha ha!) me telling him so, that he has no free will.

So it was that God through the revelation of Scriptures revealed to us, understood only in our post-salvation state, that we did not "chose" him he chose us in spite of our so-called "free will".

If you have yet to understand Martin Luther's Bondage of the Will, note I did not say agree with, you will not understand his/or my disparaging use of “free will” in regard to salvation.

[Dahlseide]

I think it is better said that you, immediately at the time of your salvation, did not believe that God was forcing you against your will. However, in your post-salvation state you have now recognized that it was God, in no way your "free will", that chose you - even against (gasp!!!) your natural-self (free)-will. Why you?, not John Doe, neither you (nor I) can say, because salvation is solely, and by Grace, in His Realm.

[Dahlseide]

The point of your post seems to be that 1)nobody can, by an act of the will, please God and 2)anyone who disagrees with you is therefore wrong. When I put those together, you post seems entirely pointless.

I can not take credit for the contents of the post, only for posting the contents.

Regarding your 1) you are correct on the assumption that I understand what watchin means by "act of the will".

Regarding your 2) I don't think you should claim that I think you, or anyone for that matter, are wrong because in disagreement with little ‘ol me. I take for granted that you as well as I still seek to understand what is true.

If you have understood the post you will probably realize, I did not say agree with, your 1) is the crux of the post and its referral to Bondage ...

[William Terrell]

Then who has God not elected to salvation?

[Dahlseide]

I ‘ll take your question at face value. I cannot tell you because, thankfully, I do not know.

As Spurgeon, I think it was, said whoever the unsaved are they do not have yellow stripes on their back so we must preach to all 'cause we can't lift their coat tail to determine to whom to preach.

There are many canards regarding so-called Calvinism

In spite of the canards, Calvinists preach to and pray for the same folks – i.e. saints &/or sinners.

[Dahlseide]

Any thoughts directed to the contents of the post?

[William Terrell]

There once was a man named Smith. All his life, events worked to his disadvantage. Everything he made broke. Everything he tried, failed. Every woman he dated took him for a fool.

One day, Smith was walking on the sidewalk and a car soaked him from a mud puddle, even though it had not rained in 6 months. So powerful was the splash, it threw him off his feet into a bed of sandspurs, after banking him off a telephone pole where a splinter ripped his coat and shirt before embeding itself under his flesh.

Finally, Smith could take no more. Rising up from the sandspur bed, and throwing his hand in the air, he screamed, "Lord! Why me alla tha' time?!".

Silence ensued, and two clouds rolled back, through which a beam of light projected. A bass voice rumbled in the distance.

"I dunno, Smith, there's just something about you that pisses me off."

Is that story pretty close to your spiritual philosophy?

[Dahlseide]

I bit, sorry I assumed so much from you.

[MHGinTN]

The image gave me a perfect way to describe for myself and anyone already saved, how it all happened. So it was God all along, even though I had no idea then, or experientially now, that God was (yes) forcing me, through his marvelous Grace, to the heavenward side of the arch. This schizophrenic perspective can be cited to validate the notion that no sin may occur but what God is repsonsible for allowing it, thus it is God who is ultimately responsible for the sin by the sinner, as if the sinner has in reality no free will since God sees the end fromt he beginning. I do not ascribe to that and I can illustrate why with a simple thought experiment.

We have a devout Buddhist who has live an entire life without ever even hearing the Gospel of Salvation through the Grace of God in Christ. This Buddhist has lived an honorable and humble life toward all others. At death, the Buddhist confronts the truth (and only truth will be 'over there' because were it otherwise, God would be negotiable) that Christ died so that the Buddhist's nature may be overcome and eternal life with God made possible for humankind. Because the Buddhist has lived devoutly and at peace toward all others, the truth resonates within the spirit of the Buddhist, and true to his devloped nature during his life, honoring truth over falsehood, he believes the truth. Another not so honorable 'buddhist' dies and confronts the same truth at the moment of crossing over. Because this fellow has spent his life seeking the exception clauses that would excuse his fulfilling his desires, he at once argues with the truth ... and the gates of Heaven are not open to such pride.

The scriptures read that at the final judgement, every (not just those that heard about it all during their lifetime on earth, EVERY) knee shall bow. If these two Buddhists mentioned are not included in the total of those to hear the truth of Christ, then the total is not 'every'.