U.S versus Vatican: A clash of cultures

National Catholic Reporter ^ | 5/23/2003 | John L. Allen

[Semper Paratus]

many Vatican observers have been shocked at what they see as the punitive and unforgiving response to priestly misconduct in American culture.

Really, they think American parents overreact when preists bugger their children?

[McGavin999]

I fear the people who surround the Pope are not exactly holy men. I hope that when it comes time to elect a new Pope that a good strong man will step into JP's shoes. If JP were still in the flower of his youth, this would not be happening.

[F16Fighter]

The editorial said the most urgent task now is to “reestablish international legality, wounded by the ‘unilateralism’ of the United States.” It called for the United Nations, not the United States, to direct the post-war work in Iraq.

The Vatican is soooo out of whack on this issue that one wonders if it actually has a stake and design on somehow leading a suggested UN-proxied/One World Government?

It is Power, not saving souls that the "new" Vatican seems most interested in these days...

[sinkspur]

I fear the people who surround the Pope are not exactly holy men.

The men who surround John Paul II are not exactly fans of the United States. Cardinal Solodano, the Secretary of State, allowed his undersecretary, Archbishop Martino, to label the Iraq war "A crime against humanity."

Many of the others are Euros and South Americans, who distrust the United States and are, deep down, jealous of the influence this country has in the world.

As Father Richard Neuhaus, editor of FIRST THINGS, put it recently: "The lead-up to the Iraq war was not this papacy's finest hour."

[travelnurse]

I hope that when it comes time to elect a new Pope that a good strong man will step into JP's shoes.

---

I wouldn't hold my breath... The pope is a puppet for the UN and the Arabs.

[Bringbackthedraft]

Does anyone in the USA actually care what the Vatican thinks or is interested in? After all, some even call us the land of the Great Satan. Ohoooooo.

[prairiebreeze]

“have clearly shown that there were not sufficient reasons for moving against Iraq, because the country did not constitute a true threat for the United States and its allies.”

So mass graves, frivolous executions, rape, tree shredders, acid baths, electrocution and tyranny mean nothing to the leaders of the Catholic Church?

These men don't sound much different at all from the tyrrants who abused the power of the Church during Quasimodo's time.

John Paul is so frail, I frankly don't think he authorizes any of this anti-American stuff.

Prairie

[theFIRMbss]

>the Vatican has again criticized American policy in remarkably strong terms

This amazing book --
presented as semi-fact --
flat out alleges

that the Catholic Church
today is undergoing
a tough, civil war,

with conservative
Christian Catholics fighting
"worldly" almost

anti-Christian blocs
within the Church. (At one point,
the author presents

a scene where the pope
is threatened by a US
politician with

assassination
if the pope were to speak out
about the US

agenda to link
"population control" to
foreign policy...)

[AlaskaErik]

In the lead editorial of its May 17 issue, the journal asserted that “the United States has put international law in crisis.”

The lack of the rest of the world in responding to numerous massacres in Africa, the Middle East and eastern Europe, which have cost millions upon millions their lives, has done much more to put international law in crisis than our liberation of Afghanistan and Iraq. These idiots still don't get it.

[NetValue]

"The men who surround John Paul II are not exactly fans of the United States. Cardinal Solodano, the Secretary of State, allowed his undersecretary, Archbishop Martino, to label the Iraq war "A crime against humanity."

Well, according to their bible, so is sodomy.

[sinkspur]

Thought you might like to read this analysis, with its references to Calvinism.

[John Beresford Tipton]

"No one should be shocked...the next time
Civiltà Cattolica takes America to task."

Nor should anyone give a $hit

[Faraday]

SS, Thanks for this post. It provides context for many of the recent Vatican actions and statements. I see the "clash of civilization" and "Calvanist" issues. However, these Church leaders don't seem to be aware that what is being responded to is a long 10 - 20 year, anti-American, terrorist campaign. America's usual reaction to cultural and political differences is "who the hell cares, let's do business." But after being attacked multiple times with ever increasing degrees of viciousness and casualties, we finally said "Enough!" We, then, cast the issue as a moral one from which we would not retreat or compromise. If so-called religious leaders of all faiths had been guiding their followers to reject fanatic terrorism, this situation would not have arisen.

Politically, the Vatican (along with the leadership of other mainline Christian sects) stands firmly in the camp of the Axis of Weasels. I wonder if they realize where that commitment will take the world?

[sinkspur]

I wonder if they realize where that commitment will take the world?

Eyes might open if al-Qaeda manages to fly a plane into the dome of St. Peter's in Rome.

But, there is a certain naivete in denominational religion that simply refuses to believe that there are those for whom "can't we all just get along" is totally foreign.

Pope John Paul II never uttered a single word of condemnation of Saddam Hussein's human rights abuses, abuses which continue to be documented and are worse than anyone imagined.

He has also never expressed public gratitude and thanks to God for the freedom from tyranny of 24 million Iraqis.

[demlosers]

Catholic faith.” American society, he said, “is the civil counterpart of a faith based on private interpretation of Scripture and private experience of God.” He contrasted this kind of society with one based on the Catholic Church's teaching of community and a vision of life greater than the individual.

So this is why the Vatican was against the US Iraqi war? The Catholic Church is still fighting Protestant reformation of 500 years ago. They still think in terms of Protestants vs. Catholics. No wonder Condi is confused.

In the view of some in the Vatican, underlying both the harsh American response on sexual abuse, and its dualistic approach to foreign policy, is the legacy of Calvinism. The Calvinist concepts of the total depravity of the damned, the unconditional election of God’s favored, and the manifestation of election through earthly success, all seem to them to play a powerful role in shaping American cultural psychology

"Dualistic approach to foreign policy..." Huh? "Total depravity of the damned..." You guys having trouble spotting the bad guys? "The unconditional election of God's favored, and the manifestation of election through earthly success... What? you guys whining about Bush's 2000 victory? Because Bush is a pious person who’s not Catholic?

[onyx]

Your Post #5, is bull's-eye accurate. Thank you.

[gaspar]

While Catholic Western Europe reverted to Paganism the Catholic Church pandered to the left with the Vatican Council, Puebla and Medellin, and succored the Liberal Theology abomination.

Now, if Donald Rumsfeld can classify the "Old Europe" so to can the Vatican be classified the "Old Church". Perhaps some dynamism can be instilled in it by the nomination of an African or Asian as Pontiff (or even a North American). Until then, the Old Church, with an attenuated Jesuit society and a sclerotic Italian heirarchy in train, will continue to lose relevance.

[Phsstpok]

The men who surround John Paul II are not exactly fans of the United States. Cardinal Solodano, the Secretary of State, allowed his undersecretary, Archbishop Martino, to label the Iraq war "A crime against humanity."

Many of the others are Euros and South Americans, who distrust the United States and are, deep down, jealous of the influence this country has in the world.

It appears that these men are adherents of "liberation theology," which to me means leftist dogma overcomes and manipulates Christian dogma. The non-religious left is on a campaign against Bush who they cast as the secular anti-christ (or secular christ, depending on your point of view).

Notice that they almost universally say that it's not America but George Bush (and the "neocons") who are the problem. This article does paint with the broad brush of blaming "Americans," but it's clear that their problem is with this administration.

Bush (et al) believes in a personal relationship with God through his savior, Jesus Christ. He believes in people, not communities. He believes in right and wrong, not moral relativism. Deep down the men who surround the Pope don't believe in those things.

[ImpotentRage]

I am currently reading The Devil's Final Battle, which deals with the Church attempting to negate the Third Secret of Fatima. As in Windswept House, this book (NOT a novel) says that the Church hierarchy has been infiltrated by men who are actively working against the Church's proper religious teachings.

I, too, was shocked by the Pope's comments before the military action in Iraq. But, if one considers the fact that there have been years of planning by powers in the Vatican to embrace a one world government, what was said isn't too surprising.

The Devil's Final Battle is an extremely sobering look at how the Church has been influenced in the same manner - and by the same belief systems - as have governments.