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US slob 'framed' Col. Tim
The Sun ^ | June 22, 2003 | NEIL SYSON and JOHN KAY

Posted on 05/22/2003 7:49:44 PM PDT by arjay

THE arrogant US Army major who accused Colonel Tim Collins of war crimes in Iraq was taking REVENGE — after the Brit hero had told him to stand to attention properly.

Witnesses said the tobacco-chewing American had shrugged at Col Collins, 43, and said with a sneer: “Oh, yeah, fine.”

Former SAS man Col Collins was furious at the major’s disrespectful attitude toward a senior officer and had him arrested for insubordination.

Then he humiliated the yank by making him stand ramrod straight for 45 minutes while British squaddies walked past, trying to stifle their sniggers.

It is believed the US officer suffered further humiliation when he was demoted by his superiors. He subsequently filed rumours that were circulating which alleged Col Collins had fired weapons needlessly and assaulted Iraqis.

The pair clashed when the colonel saw the major dishing out sweets and rations to children near the British HQ in southern Iraq.

Col Collins told him to stop and said he had banned such practices on safety grounds.

But the major replied: “You do your job and I will do mine.”

The colonel hit the roof and gave him a withering dressing down.

Another British officer said: “Col Collins had banned us all from throwing sweets out of our vehicles, or handing them out on patrol, because he wanted all food distribution to be controlled and organised.

“He did not want the locals being treated like animals and in the pandemonium that it caused a kid could easily have fallen under the wheels of a vehicle.

“One day this US major turned up and started dishing out sweets to kids outside a school.

“He wasn’t even supposed to be in the area. He was part of a CIMIC team, which is a civil-military cooperation providing aid, food and water to surrounding towns.”

Other soldiers witnessed the confrontation.

One squaddie said: Col Collins asked him who he was and what he was doing. The major explained himself.

Col Collins said, ‘This is my area of responsibility. I’ve put a ban on this. It is not good for security and I don’t want the locals treated in this way. They have pride’.

Word has gone round that the US major was heard to say, ‘You do your job and I will do mine’.

Majors do not speak to colonels like that. The colonel apparently blew his top and stormed: ‘Do you realise who you are talking to? This is Col Tim Collins of the Royal Irish Regiment. Stand to attention when I’m talking to you’.

The US major stood up in a sloppy, disrespectful manner while saying ‘yeah, fine,’ instead of snapping to attention. At that point Col Collins got angry and ordered a sergeant major to arrest him for insubordination.

Back at HQ it was hilarious, with this American standing upright and the British soldiers filing past wondering what was going on.

After three-quarters of an hour a high-ranking US Army officer turned up. He went in to meet Col Collins, who explained why the major was under arrest.

The Brit soldiers who saw him thought he was a bit of a prat. He was in his late 30s or early 40s and about 5ft 8in. He was chewing tobacco and looked like a bit of a redneck. We were all chuckling behind his back.

I would not say it’s never been done before but for a commander to arrest someone like this and humiliate him in this way is unusual.

Hero's welcome ... liberated Iraqis hail Col Collins in Al Amara After “apologies all round” the Americans took away the major to discipline him themselves.

Weeks later he filed a series of claims that father-of-five Col Collins contravened the Geneva Convention.

Allegations include that he pistol-whipped an Iraqi civic leader and intimidated civilians by firing at their feet.

The source added: “There were a lot of rumours flying around about Col Collins.

“We don’t know how the US major got hold of them, but he reported them to his bosses who got straight on to the Ministry of Defence.

“It was a spiteful, vengeful act against the commander but I believe he will brush off the complaints.

“He is a fantastic leader — strong but fair — who loved the Iraqi people.”

Inspirational Col Collins won international fame and praise with his Shakespearean-style speech to his troops just before the attack on Iraq.

The address was admired by Prince Charles and President George Bush.

A soldier who served under the colonel for three years likened him yesterday to the boss of all-conquering Manchester United.

He said: “He is a winner, the Alex Ferguson of the Army. People might not like him but he is the best.”

The former Royal Irish Regiment ranger said Collins — then a major — was his commander in C Company, based at Catterick, North Yorks, from March 1997 to November 1999.

“He was tough and his methods were ruthless but he got the job done.

“He was very precise and wouldn’t tolerate any slackness or lack of ability.”

Last night senior officers confirmed the version of events given to The Sun by the officer who worked closely with Col Collins.

One said: “This is exactly what we have been told happened. We hope Col Collins will be cleared but we have to investigate every aspect of the allegations.

“The fact an investigation is being undertaken demonstrates only that we are establishing the facts. It does not indicate or imply that any judgement has been made.”

The Sun has checked the identity of our informants, and verified the accuracy of what they told us.

But they have asked us not to name them for fear of disciplinary action under the Official Secrets Act.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: britain; iraq; revenge; timcollins
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To: McGavin999
Sounds more to me like a Special Forces guy running up against a very proper British officer.

Read the story

He was part of a CIMIC team, which is a civil-military cooperation providing aid, food and water to surrounding towns.

CIMIC are not Special Forces: They are Social Workers

41 posted on 05/22/2003 8:58:08 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Stan Cross, Marcia Hines, Mel Gibson: if we can pry them away from you, they're ours!)
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To: arjay
What I am really starting to resent is the superiority complex of the Brits which was evident even before this incident. Even back in WW2, Montgomery was a arrogant, primadonna. By the way, Audie Murphy was a short man, but a bigger man than anybody the Brits have, and as a Texan he was a bit of a redneck. Also, this "let's not throw the sweets at the kids, they have dignity BS" wasn't even a consideration in WW2, we had bombers dropping chocolate, etc.

What is wrong with the Arabs and their uberfragile self esteem?

Also, we should have no Americans under the command of foreign Armies.

42 posted on 05/22/2003 8:59:16 PM PDT by faithincowboys
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To: McGavin999
Reread the origional post.The American was identified as a glorified social worker.Not a combat soldier and definitely not special forces.
43 posted on 05/22/2003 9:01:06 PM PDT by Blessed
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To: Oztrich Boy
But you don't know what he really was. I just read a thread where the Col. was accused of war crimes by some Iraqi Baathist. I don't believe the Iraqi, but the Col. has been under a lot of pressure. This guy may have been sent in to see what was happening.

This guy over-reacted, and it doesn't sound like our guys, unless someone was trying to provoke him to see what his reaction would be.

Col. Tim has been there since the start of this and it could be a case of he's over-tired and over-stressed. Or not, but I still this was a SF guy sent in on a mission.

44 posted on 05/22/2003 9:01:17 PM PDT by McGavin999
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To: Blessed
heh! Great minds and all that. See my #41
45 posted on 05/22/2003 9:03:34 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Stan Cross, Marcia Hines, Mel Gibson: if we can pry them away from you, they're ours!)
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To: Blessed
Read this It might mean something or not
46 posted on 05/22/2003 9:03:40 PM PDT by McGavin999
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To: Lancey Howard
Are you suggesting that a Marine Corps Major would have the stupidity to ignore a superior officer and possibly strike him?

I wonder how many of you folks have actually served?

I'll leave this discussion to you wannabe's who seem to know better than the rest of us just how a Professional Officer is likely to behave.
47 posted on 05/22/2003 9:05:26 PM PDT by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: Pukin Dog
If the Major so much as hesitated, he should have been busted. During wartime there is no margin for that kind of nonsense.

This story, as reported by The Sun, clearly attempts to slant in favor of their hero Colonel Collins. Even with that slant I can still envision the confrontation: Collins didn't approach this Major and quietly tell him to cease and desist his activities in a civil officer-to-officer manner. He strode up to the Major and got in the his face, then looked down his nose and shouted orders, all the while exuding the odor of anal retentiveness. I have a feeling Collins caught the Major by surprise. That is, the Major was probably surprised that this British officer was such a bung-hole.
The Colonel then proved it.

48 posted on 05/22/2003 9:05:43 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: Blessed
Uh huh, and the article also said that the "witnesses" repeated "that's the way they heard it. In other words it could all be rumor.
49 posted on 05/22/2003 9:06:23 PM PDT by McGavin999
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To: McGavin999
but I still this was a SF guy sent in on a mission

and when the full story comes, it's more likely that his first name is Mohammad and he's Al Qaeda.

50 posted on 05/22/2003 9:07:56 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Stan Cross, Marcia Hines, Mel Gibson: if we can pry them away from you, they're ours!)
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To: AEMILIUS PAULUS
An American soldier must give proper respect to Allied officers (and in return he can expect it from them).

This guy was a civil-affairs dude. An SF element would not have been in Colonel Collins's area. (If the Brits have a big conventional force there, they don't need 'em). It's true that SF is informal within the unit, it has to be to work as well as it does, but most SF guys are very cautious when dealing with conventional forces -- American or otherwise. Those units tend to enforce discipline with punitive measure, and spit-n-polish. Again, they have to do that to work as well as they do. Horses for courses, as Maggie Thatcher said.

I suspect the story is somewhat exaggerated. Britons are proud people, and they hate being the junior partner in the coalition, so when one of our guys makes an ass of himself the Brits will definitely run with it. The Australians and Kiwis are the same way. Like brothers, we can pick on each other but we all hang together when the boy down the street needs a beating.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

51 posted on 05/22/2003 9:08:07 PM PDT by Criminal Number 18F
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To: Pukin Dog
You are assuming an awful lot here. First off, there was no "American Major" in the initial story. On the other hand, there were Iraqi complainants! The "original" version of the accusation was that American soldiers had done it all. That story disappeared as the "newsies" realized Americans don't quite do it that way. After all, we are not Europeans.

Until we get some names of witnesses, some sworn testimony from them, and a regular proceeding set up to hear all this, no one will know what's true and what's just Brit "newsie" propaganda and BS.

BTW, I fail to see that what the Brit Colonel supposedly did to the American Major has anything to do with discipline. It's more in the realm of the sado-masochism the Brits are supposed to get into in those "public" schools their officer core attends, and I will go so far as to guess that this event didn't happen at all and is merely an erotic imagining of a confused "newsie".

52 posted on 05/22/2003 9:08:50 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Pukin Dog
I wonder how many of you folks have actually served?

Six years in the Marine Corps for me.
How about you, big mouth?

I'll leave this discussion to you wannabe's who seem to know better than the rest of us just how a Professional Officer is likely to behave.

I never saw an officer behave the way this Collins reportedly behaved.

53 posted on 05/22/2003 9:09:09 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: marktwain
I dare you bring some facts to the story!

The Sun is worse than the NYT and so many here are willing to simply run with what they say...

I'll wait for more actual information before coming to any conclusions on what really happened.
54 posted on 05/22/2003 9:09:46 PM PDT by DB (©)
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To: katze
The Brits have historically had a bad rep. He probably was playing "show the lowly American who has the better soldiers" routine. When you feel inferior, you do things like that. He was upset that the American Major wasn't kissing his ring. Even in the article, people that have worked with Collins previously suggest he is impossible, but capable.

55 posted on 05/22/2003 9:09:51 PM PDT by faithincowboys
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To: Lancey Howard
I'm with you and some of the others on this thread. The story is pure fantasy - for a lot of reasons.
56 posted on 05/22/2003 9:11:08 PM PDT by spectre
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To: gcruse
My point about being petty was intended to say that IF the story is true, the American officer is being petty by accusing the Brit.

I do not know if the story is true or not. I simply posted this as a matter of information.

As Foxnews might say, "We report, you decide."
57 posted on 05/22/2003 9:15:28 PM PDT by arjay
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To: Oztrich Boy
Then he wouldn't be described as a "redneck" nor would he likely be chewing tobacco.
58 posted on 05/22/2003 9:17:23 PM PDT by McGavin999
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To: faithincowboys
The Brits have historically had a bad rep.

Maybe in Hollywood accounts of World War II. I enjoyed Patton also and I suspect he would have done the samething the Col. allegedly did.
The British SAS are among the elite fighting forces in the world.I believe the only British forces in Iraq were SAS.Remember they were slugging it out in southern Iraq allowing our calvary to make the lightning run to Bagdad
59 posted on 05/22/2003 9:18:52 PM PDT by Blessed
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To: faithincowboys
He probably was playing "show the lowly American who has the better soldiers" routine.

There's been no shortage of articles from British papers pumping up the Brit troopers and slagging American GIs. And that attitude didn't start with this conflict.

60 posted on 05/22/2003 9:22:47 PM PDT by Trailerpark Badass
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