US slob 'framed' Col. Tim

The Sun ^ | June 22, 2003 | NEIL SYSON and JOHN KAY

[Oztrich Boy]

Sounds more to me like a Special Forces guy running up against a very proper British officer.

Read the story

He was part of a CIMIC team, which is a civil-military cooperation providing aid, food and water to surrounding towns.

CIMIC are not Special Forces: They are Social Workers

[faithincowboys]

What I am really starting to resent is the superiority complex of the Brits which was evident even before this incident. Even back in WW2, Montgomery was a arrogant, primadonna. By the way, Audie Murphy was a short man, but a bigger man than anybody the Brits have, and as a Texan he was a bit of a redneck. Also, this "let's not throw the sweets at the kids, they have dignity BS" wasn't even a consideration in WW2, we had bombers dropping chocolate, etc.

What is wrong with the Arabs and their uberfragile self esteem?

Also, we should have no Americans under the command of foreign Armies.

[Blessed]

Reread the origional post.The American was identified as a glorified social worker.Not a combat soldier and definitely not special forces.

[McGavin999]

But you don't know what he really was. I just read a thread where the Col. was accused of war crimes by some Iraqi Baathist. I don't believe the Iraqi, but the Col. has been under a lot of pressure. This guy may have been sent in to see what was happening.

This guy over-reacted, and it doesn't sound like our guys, unless someone was trying to provoke him to see what his reaction would be.

Col. Tim has been there since the start of this and it could be a case of he's over-tired and over-stressed. Or not, but I still this was a SF guy sent in on a mission.

[Oztrich Boy]

heh! Great minds and all that. See my #41

[McGavin999]

Read this It might mean something or not

[Pukin Dog]

Are you suggesting that a Marine Corps Major would have the stupidity to ignore a superior officer and possibly strike him?

I wonder how many of you folks have actually served?

I'll leave this discussion to you wannabe's who seem to know better than the rest of us just how a Professional Officer is likely to behave.

[Lancey Howard]

If the Major so much as hesitated, he should have been busted. During wartime there is no margin for that kind of nonsense.

This story, as reported by The Sun, clearly attempts to slant in favor of their hero Colonel Collins. Even with that slant I can still envision the confrontation: Collins didn't approach this Major and quietly tell him to cease and desist his activities in a civil officer-to-officer manner. He strode up to the Major and got in the his face, then looked down his nose and shouted orders, all the while exuding the odor of anal retentiveness. I have a feeling Collins caught the Major by surprise. That is, the Major was probably surprised that this British officer was such a bung-hole.
The Colonel then proved it.

[McGavin999]

Uh huh, and the article also said that the "witnesses" repeated "that's the way they heard it. In other words it could all be rumor.

[Oztrich Boy]

but I still this was a SF guy sent in on a mission

and when the full story comes, it's more likely that his first name is Mohammad and he's Al Qaeda.

[Criminal Number 18F]

An American soldier must give proper respect to Allied officers (and in return he can expect it from them).

This guy was a civil-affairs dude. An SF element would not have been in Colonel Collins's area. (If the Brits have a big conventional force there, they don't need 'em). It's true that SF is informal within the unit, it has to be to work as well as it does, but most SF guys are very cautious when dealing with conventional forces -- American or otherwise. Those units tend to enforce discipline with punitive measure, and spit-n-polish. Again, they have to do that to work as well as they do. Horses for courses, as Maggie Thatcher said.

I suspect the story is somewhat exaggerated. Britons are proud people, and they hate being the junior partner in the coalition, so when one of our guys makes an ass of himself the Brits will definitely run with it. The Australians and Kiwis are the same way. Like brothers, we can pick on each other but we all hang together when the boy down the street needs a beating.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

[muawiyah]

You are assuming an awful lot here. First off, there was no "American Major" in the initial story. On the other hand, there were Iraqi complainants! The "original" version of the accusation was that American soldiers had done it all. That story disappeared as the "newsies" realized Americans don't quite do it that way. After all, we are not Europeans.

Until we get some names of witnesses, some sworn testimony from them, and a regular proceeding set up to hear all this, no one will know what's true and what's just Brit "newsie" propaganda and BS.

BTW, I fail to see that what the Brit Colonel supposedly did to the American Major has anything to do with discipline. It's more in the realm of the sado-masochism the Brits are supposed to get into in those "public" schools their officer core attends, and I will go so far as to guess that this event didn't happen at all and is merely an erotic imagining of a confused "newsie".

[Lancey Howard]

I wonder how many of you folks have actually served?

Six years in the Marine Corps for me.
How about you, big mouth?

I'll leave this discussion to you wannabe's who seem to know better than the rest of us just how a Professional Officer is likely to behave.

I never saw an officer behave the way this Collins reportedly behaved.

[DB]

I dare you bring some facts to the story!

The Sun is worse than the NYT and so many here are willing to simply run with what they say...

I'll wait for more actual information before coming to any conclusions on what really happened.

[faithincowboys]

The Brits have historically had a bad rep. He probably was playing "show the lowly American who has the better soldiers" routine. When you feel inferior, you do things like that. He was upset that the American Major wasn't kissing his ring. Even in the article, people that have worked with Collins previously suggest he is impossible, but capable.

[spectre]

I'm with you and some of the others on this thread. The story is pure fantasy - for a lot of reasons.

[arjay]

My point about being petty was intended to say that IF the story is true, the American officer is being petty by accusing the Brit.

I do not know if the story is true or not. I simply posted this as a matter of information.

As Foxnews might say, "We report, you decide."

[McGavin999]

Then he wouldn't be described as a "redneck" nor would he likely be chewing tobacco.

[Blessed]

The Brits have historically had a bad rep.

Maybe in Hollywood accounts of World War II. I enjoyed Patton also and I suspect he would have done the samething the Col. allegedly did.
The British SAS are among the elite fighting forces in the world.I believe the only British forces in Iraq were SAS.Remember they were slugging it out in southern Iraq allowing our calvary to make the lightning run to Bagdad

[Trailerpark Badass]

He probably was playing "show the lowly American who has the better soldiers" routine.

There's been no shortage of articles from British papers pumping up the Brit troopers and slagging American GIs. And that attitude didn't start with this conflict.