US slob 'framed' Col. Tim

The Sun ^ | June 22, 2003 | NEIL SYSON and JOHN KAY

[Pukin Dog]

Totally right, meenie.

[Fred Mertz]

Most people know that The Sun is a British newspaper, don't they?

The slant is unsurprising when put in that light.

[gcruse]

There's nothing petty about it, unless you are referring to expectations of poor military bearing being natural to American officers.

[The Red Zone]

This is a story?

[Pukin Dog]

Don't be silly.

I said that I wish I could say that every Army officer that I have come across had exhibited the same professionalism that I experienced working with the Brits.

That also goes for the Israeli's who were some of the best military men I have ever seen. Everyone knows that our own Army was used by the Clinton administration to further a leftest agenda, and the Army is worse off for it.

During this war, I have seen disgraceful behavior on the part of Army officers, carping at Command because they did not like Rumsfeld, who took away their big gun. It would be better for the Army (and us) if they were just absorbed into the Marines.

[muawiyah]

You realize that all the supposed witnesses are unnamed. In fact, the reporter cites "Another British officer" at the beginning of the story.

Looks a bit incestuous to me. The Brit was probably out there popping civilians just like the Major reported. After all, a Colonel who'd leave a Major standing at attention to be ridiculed by foreign EM and POWs would probably shoot at the feet of Iraqi civilians, torture prisoners, etc.

Sounds to me like they have a real Brit officer just like Tarlton in "The Patriot". I remember when the UKian people were complaining that the movie misrepresented Brit officers, but clearly they were wrong. Here's an example!

[McGavin999]

I'm rather surprised at the Brits picking this up and running with it. It sounds like something the Guardian would do, not the Sun. We need to hear both sides of the story.

This Brit officer is a noble man, I've read of what he's done over there, but I hardly think we're hearing both sides. Sounds more to me like a Special Forces guy running up against a very proper British officer. The fact that he was there on his own tells you that something is different and not quite right about this story.

[John H K]

Most people know that The Sun is a British newspaper, don't they?

It's also a tabloid, somewhere halfway between the National Enquirer and a real newspaper, and it's the tabloid with a heavy leftist slant, if I rememeber correctly.

Vast numbers of articles from the British press get posted on FR but I think a big problem is people don't really have a handle on the British press and where the various papers are coming from; they really operate a lot differently than our press.

[marktwain]

It may never even have happened. Here is part of the story from the Telegraph. Notice that there is no mention of an American major:

But the Ministry of Defence has confirmed that he is being investigated by the Army's Special Investigations Branch over a series of allegations that he:

Punched, kicked and threatened captured Iraqis to get information out of them Pistol-whipped an Iraqi town leader, badly gashing his head Fired on the ground to intimidate two Iraqi civilians Issued threats to local civic leaders to get them to comply with his demands Shot the tyres out on a car when there was no threat to allied life All but the last of these fit allegations made by Mr Nasser to an SIB team that interviewed him and his family about two weeks ago.

Mr. Nasser is a Baath party official in Basra. So where are the rumors planted by an American Major??

[Tailback]

I saw an American Colonel do the same thing to an American Captain, what's the difference? Generally Officers like to keep problems "within the clubhouse" but in instances of extremely egregious behavior sometimes a public display is necessary to get the point across. If these allegations are correct about the Major's behavior, he had it coming because I'm sure he had a few warnings before he got dressed down. Like I said, we don't know the whole story, and we may not ever know the whole story because problems involving officers tend to disappear from the public eye. My opinion is that this is much ado about nothing.

[Let's Roll]

Col. Timothy Collins is my kind of soldier. For anyone who hasn't read his well-known charge to his troops here is the link:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/waroniraq/articles/3919271?

[muawiyah]

You didn't say "every"; you said "some". As in: " I wish I could say the same about some officers from our own Army.".

There's a tremendous difference between "every" and "some". No doubt you will be more careful in the future (and after having been subjected to the strict discipline of the grammarian in front of 40,000 other writers/posters, which I am sure you will not mistake for ridicule, I think I have not only made my point, but convinced you that a "private reply" would probably have been a bit more proper.)

[Billthedrill]

What utter crap. This is an incident reported by amateurs, given a nationalistic slant, and suggesting behavior on the part of both parties which is so unprofessional as to make me suspect this story on the very face of it. If this went down as reported I have no respect for either officer, Brit or Yank. And I should be happy to tell either one of them to his face.

[marktwain]

Check out this previous post of an article from the Telegraph, also a British paper. The discrepancies are quite startling. The Telegraph article names names and supposed infractions. The Sun article is just not credible to me.


"Ba'ath Party Teacher Accuses 'War Crimes' British Colonel Of Staging Mock Execution"

[Pukin Dog]

"After all, a Colonel who'd leave a Major standing at attention to be ridiculed by foreign EM and POWs would probably shoot at the feet of Iraqi civilians, torture prisoners, etc."

You cannot be serious.

Col. Collins from the moment of his speech to his troops was a media figure. Do you think had he taken such actions that it would not have been reported before now?

Had that been me,(Ret-Navy) I would had the Major at Capt's Mast before he could spit. The military only works because of rules. Your attitude is the difference between the Vietnam era and the Professional Service we have today.

You just cannot draft people, and expect to get much from them. In the all-volunteer service, discipline is the first order. If the Major so much as hesitated, he should have been busted. During wartime there is no margin for that kind of nonsense.

[Oztrich Boy]

The Brit was probably out there popping civilians just like the Major reported. After all, a Colonel who'd leave a Major standing at attention to be ridiculed by foreign EM and POWs would probably shoot at the feet of Iraqi civilians, torture prisoners, etc.

Sure you wouldn't be haapier at DU?

From the story I'm reading Col. Collins as a hard-arse stickler for military discipline, who would be unlikely to commit crimes against civilians.

You are reading him as a big meany who made the Major feel embarassed.

[Outrance]

I would be very surprised if this story were true.

[Pukin Dog]

If you wish to attack my grammar, so be it.

It only says to me that you have no attack for my point of view. Hell, I've only had a computer for a few weeks, and I don't even know how everything works yet.

Your point, if you still want it, is of no value to me. If 40,000 people wish to pay attention to how I write instead of what I write, then I will have to question why I came here in the first place, wont I?

But then, I was told I would run into some very uptight folks here when the place was recommended to me.

[fourdeuce82d]

I'd like to see some other confirmation about this from other sources before I come to any conclusion

bingo. Most intelligent post so far.

[Lancey Howard]

Then he humiliated the yank by making him stand ramrod straight for 45 minutes while British squaddies walked past, trying to stifle their sniggers.

LOL, if this bloated egomaniac Collins had tried this with a Marine Corps officer he would have simply been laughed off. And if he didn't like it, he might have been smashed in the mouth.

However....
I don't believe this story for a minute. Am I supposed to believe that this Major was hanging around handing out candy all by himself, with none of his troops or colleagues around? And that he actually allowed himself to be arrested by a Brit Sergeant Major? And forced to stand at attention for 45 minutes while "squaddies" gawked and "sniggered" at him?

Gimme a break.... This is the kind of fabrication you might read in the New York Times.