[colorado tanker]

I don't know that we have any big disagreement, although I look at the present state of affairs with more optimism than you, apparently.

I thought the "social contract" types would have been jolted by the rise of Hitler to power, WWII and the Holocaust, done by proper procedure or agreement of the people, but grossly violative of the natural rights of millions. The only principled way to critique that regime was from a natural rights point of view.

[Mark Bahner]

"I don't know that we have any big disagreement,..."

I've never let that get in the way of a good argument. ;-)

"...although I look at the present state of affairs with more optimism than you, apparently."

Well, I'm not living in Cuba. So I got that going for me, which is nice. ;-)

"I thought the "social contract" types would have been jolted by the rise of Hitler to power, WWII and the Holocaust, done by proper procedure or agreement of the people, but grossly violative of the natural rights of millions. The only principled way to critique that regime was from a natural rights point of view."

D-oh! Weren't you arguing *for* social contract, versus natural rights? If you weren't, my bad.