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To: Tamar1973; joesnuffy
I can't see how David Horowitz, by quoting the New Testament, would become some kind of authority on Judaism thereby. Mr. Horowitz was attempting to meet the likes of Bauer on their own intellectual turf, the NT.

There would be little use in quoting Torah to most X-ians, especially those of Bauer's ilk, as most them rarely ever read it and have publically stated in their doctrinal statements that J-sus replaced Torah with "grace", even when at the same time, they claim that J-sus himself is the creator of the universe and gave Torah to the Jews--the same Torah they now feel is largely abrogated by J-sus' death on the cross.

They can't have it both ways, either Torah, with its condemnations of homosexual and other behaviours are binding or not. Either the Torah "high days" and the Sabbath are important or they are not.

I find that most x-ians splits hairs with the Torah when it suits them (when they bother to read it). You can't say that the Torah is right about homosexual behaviour and wrong about the "high days" and be intellectually consistent.

First of all, your assertion that Fundamentalist Protestants don't read the Torah shows forth your ignorance. It is precisely because of their respect for the Torah that they have refused to replace it with the ritual system of the liturgical churches, and in some instances have even incorporated Jewish rituals into their own services (often misunderstood as a mere tactic to trick Jews into converting). Why is it that most Noachides (in America at least) come from precisely this very background which you so villify? Why don't Noachides come from the "tolerant, liberal" types? To ask the question is to answer it.

You claim the Notzerim are inconsistent to oppose homosexuality because they reject the Torah. This is true to an extent (and I wish more chr*stians whould think about it), but they are less inconsistent than you are. At least their "new testament" repeats and continues that particular Torah prohibition. Yet you reject authority of the Torah you claim to defend from the Notzerim. Who is inconsistent here? You are. If the chr*stians believe the Torah was abrogated, you apparently believe it never had any authority to begin with.

Please note that I utterly reject the false piety you display in using the term "X-tian." If you reject Torah's authority on human sexuality you obviously do not avoid the names of false "gxds" on its authority.

Again, shame on you. The damage you are doing may never be undone. But I suppose that makes you happy.

185 posted on 05/20/2003 10:04:15 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (G-d's laws or NONE!!!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
First of all, your assertion that Fundamentalist Protestants don't read the Torah shows forth your ignorance.

You are the one showing your ignorance of the goings-on in the majority of protestant x-ian churches. Most the them, such as baptists, methodists, etc. only read the personal stories of the Torah (such as David and Goliath, Daniel in the Lion's den, etc.) They don't teach much from Moses' writings, they don't teach that the 10 commandments are still relevant for our lives (except in those instances where J-sus restates them). They keep all the 10 commandments to some degree except the 4th. They don't keep the 7th day Sabbath in their churches. This is what I am talking about when I talk about the x-ian ignorance of Torah.

It is precisely because of their respect for the Torah that they have refused to replace it with the ritual system of the liturgical churches, and in some instances have even incorporated Jewish rituals into their own services (often misunderstood as a mere tactic to trick Jews into converting).

Most of the "messianic" groups I have seen or heard of are more liturgical that one might think. Most of them have variations on the Siddur for their worship services.

Are you a "real" Nochide or a "messianic jew" because most are of the opinion that Nochides do not believe in J-sus or Y'shua.

You claim the Notzerim are inconsistent to oppose homosexuality because they reject the Torah. This is true to an extent (and I wish more chr*stians whould think about it), but they are less inconsistent than you are..... Yet you reject authority of the Torah you claim to defend from the Notzerim. Who is inconsistent here? You are. If the chr*stians believe the Torah was abrogated, you apparently believe it never had any authority to begin with.

X-ians who reject Torah are not Notzerim.

Please note that I utterly reject the false piety you display in using the term "X-tian." If you reject Torah's authority on human sexuality you obviously do not avoid the names of false "gxds" on its authority.

Shows you know NOTHING about me. It's the fact that I actually do believe in Torah and it's application in our lives that makes me upset when I see pork-eating, sabbath-breaking X-ians quote the Torah prohibitions on homosexuality (which are correct and valid)as binding and miss out on the rest of the jewels that Torah has for us.

Again, shame on you. The damage you are doing may never be undone. But I suppose that makes you happy.

As you know, slander and misrepresentation are among the most grevious sins in jewish eyes and it seems to me that you have slandered me most egregiously. I believe in Torah, I just don't believe that x-ians can have their cake and eat it to when it comes to interpreting Torah in their daily lives.

209 posted on 05/20/2003 10:25:40 AM PDT by Tamar1973 ("He who is compassionate to the cruel, ends up being cruel to the compassionate." Jewish sage)
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