Police Storm Wrong Apartment, Resident Dies of Heart Attack

WABC News NYC ^ | May 16, 2003 | Art McFarland

[harrowup]

All I wish is that everyone here could express some measure of compassion for the victim and demonstrate some outrage at the police brutality.

I remember when the 4th Amendment really meant we were safe in our persons.

[TLBSHOW]

That is the real point of this thread. Out of control police and call it what it is murder.

[Arpege92]

How could the cops find out if anyone who is in the range of maiming or killing them before they enter the apartment?

Know knock raids have a purpose and that is to catch them by using the element of surprise. If the dealers are alerted to the cops standing outside their doorway, they make a snap judgement of should they run or should they shoot the cops once they are through the door.

This know knock raid is based on information that is made available to them before hand. It is very tragic what happened to this lady but I can't see blaming the police for doing exactly what they were trained to do. If these cops knew ahead of time that their is a strong possibility that numerous weapons are inside of the apartment, then why make the raid more dangerous by knocking first and then entering....believe it or not, no knock raids probably save more lives and that includes the suspects as well.

[justshe]

I have extreme compassion for the victim. Especially if it plays out as intially reported on this thread. I also respect Arpege92's request, having been acquainted with this person, that we wait for ALL the facts to become known.

I also became engaged in the 'side topic' as the actions of the police were questioned (side topics occur all the time on most threads on this forum) when this was stated:

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Posted by TLBSHOW to A CA Guy
News/Activism ^ 05/16/2003 3:56 PM PDT #52 of 199 ^


do you know how many police officers smoke Pot?

LOTS!

---

LOTS is significant. So I asked for a source for this information. So far, I have NOT received a source or link for this assertion. Instead, I received a suggestion, from the poster of the assertion,that *I* research the assertion.

So.....it is just that. A baseless comment without source or link. Hence, I give this poster and his comment zero credibility.

[Arpege92]

Thank you

[supercat]

Know knock raids have a purpose and that is to catch them by using the element of surprise. If the dealers are alerted to the cops standing outside their doorway, they make a snap judgement of should they run or should they shoot the cops once they are through the door.

Flight can be prevented by surrounding the building. Attempts to shoot officers can be mitigated by a deliberate clearing strategy. As for crooks destroying evidence, I have a simple strategy for that: have a cop show up at the door, knock, wait for the sound of flushing followed by someone opening the door. When someone answers, show them some mug shots of suspects seen in the neighborhood and ask the person if they've seen them. No warrant required, and no risk if the wrong house is visited. Once the sounds of flushing no longer precede the opening door, assuming the dealer's boss hasn't gotten steamed about the trashed inventory, then the police can conduct a proper search.

s know knock raid is based on information that is made available to them before hand. It is very tragic what happened to this lady but I can't see blaming the police for doing exactly what they were trained to do. If these cops knew ahead of time that their is a strong possibility that numerous weapons are inside of the apartment, then why make the raid more dangerous by knocking first and then entering....believe it or not, no knock raids probably save more lives and that includes the suspects as well.

How dangerous have seige raids been back when they were the normal method of getting holed-up criminals?

[Joe Hadenuf]

How do you know such things?

Uh, because I am in the business! And you are not!

Of course, you wouldn't believe that either.

So you keep spouting off about what you don't have a clue about....

[A CA Guy]

Why do you defend the criminals and want to chase the people who are defending the people's rule of law?

That seems much darker to me than even your suggestion that making criminals responsible is behaving like Cuba or China.

[justshe]

Please have respect for arpege92's request, as he/she knows the person involved...that you wait until ALL the facts are known before making this type of comment:

"Out of control police and call it what it is murder."

This type of knee-jerk response serves no purpose but to inflame.

[SJSAMPLE]

You've obviously NEVER had any experience with this type of pyrotechnic. A "special effects grenade" this is not. It doesn't elicit a sense of awe or excitement, it's basically a quarter stick of dynamite the forces the blast through holes in a reuseable metal cylinder. If it didn't blind and deafen the target, it wouldn't be useful. I've seen GROWN MEN wet their pants when something like this (grenade simulator) went off 10 feet from them.

Yes, it would be nice if people didn't need recreational drugs (he says as he's typing this while downing his third beer), but it happens. Innocent people shouldn't have to DIE because somebody TOTALLY UNRELATED to them NEXT DOOR used drugs.

[Howlin]

This type of knee-jerk response serves no purpose but to inflame.

The intended consequence, I'd say.

[Amelia]

But of course, he did not assert most

You asserted most did not

At which point he told me my head was in the sand.

He's also implied that the war on drugs was out of control, then said that Bush wasn't doing enough to stop drugs.

I'm disappointed, Harrowup. I really thought you'd have been able to see the logical inconsistencies in his posts.

[Arpege92]

What do you mean by "mitigated by a deliberate clearing strategy"?

[supercat]

What do you mean by "mitigated by a deliberate clearing strategy"?

I am hardly an expert in room-clearing tactics, but aren't hostage-rescue teams supposed to be trained to clear rooms while minimizing risks to themselves and any innocent hostages?

Admittedly I'm not sure of any case where the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team actually rescued any hostages, but I think some state and city teams certainly have.

[TLBSHOW]

What would you call this?

[TLBSHOW]

most are not blind on this site as you would have them be.

[TLBSHOW]

there was a drug raid in town a few years back, one was the owner of a local car dealership, he was providing cars to other dealers to use to go to NYC and pick up theirs and his drugs.

Here is how they picked him up the day they did the raids. They knocked on his door and arrested him and let him get dressed.

For the others they knocked doors down threw flash bombs slammed people to the floors.

[rwfromkansas]

Good point. My experience with flash-bangs is from playing Swat 3, which is not reality obviously. I bet if I read the info the game provided on flash-bangs, it would say they can be deadly.

[Joe Hadenuf]

To all you arm chair cops out there:

Real seasoned cops will tell you in private, if they are honest, the WOD is lost, will never be won, and it's a complete waste of police time, resources, taxes, etc.

It's a racket!

It's just another glaring waste of the peoples tax money!.

> Putting people in cages for this is a joke, for everyone except government employees, judges, lawyers, and others that depend on tax payers for a pay check!

[Arpege92]

"Aren't hostage-rescue teams supposed to be trained to clear rooms while minimizing risks to themselves and any innocent hostages?"


Absolutely....and part of that training is using those stun bombs. Sometimes it's used, and sometimes not....depends on the information and circumstances.

For example.....if the cops are looking for someone who is very dangerous, they would take every precaution to get that guy into custody without anyone getting hurt and sometimes that goal involves the use of such stun bombs.

I have great sympathy for this lady and please believe me that hurting or killing someone is not taken very lightly. An investigation into this matter will take time.

Their are alot of different kinds of weapons the police are using today, tazer guns, pepper spray and stun bombs are some examples and they have proven to minimize deaths. They can be painful but they do work.