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To: harpseal
They are based on demanding free markets from our competitors.

No offense, but how do we demand "free markets" from our competitors while closing our labor market at the same time? I would revise your proposal in some ways: don't end H1B altogether; there are non-IT jobs that rely on foreign workers, notably in health care. Kicking them out of the country will do actual harm to regular Americans.

Demand that IT workers stop blaming external factors for all of their job woes. An IT worker willing to relocate has a good chance of landing a job. An IT worker wanting a job to come to him has no room to complain.

The modern IT worker has much in common with the factory worker of the early 20th century. It is no longer an elite field, untouchable to the masses. Too many people keep flocking to certification programs, recalling the laughable exhortation of the '60's that "plastics" were the future. What is needed is creativity. If you want to be a standard IT worker, you're going to be treated like a textile worker, because you are now a dime a dozen. Create, innovate, do something different: that's what the market will reward.

8 posted on 05/16/2003 5:50:31 AM PDT by Mr. Bird
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To: Mr. Bird
No offense, but how do we demand "free markets" from our competitors while closing our labor market at the same time?

The alternative is we open our market to them while their market is closed to us. that is insanity. we demand free acess to their market or they face a cut off of access to our market it is really simple.

I would revise your proposal in some ways: don't end H1B altogether; there are non-IT jobs that rely on foreign workers, notably in health care.

There are a number of Americans looking for these same jobs. I would suggest a good faith effort at hiring and training and paying a sufficient wage to attract the appropriate talent.

Kicking them out of the country will do actual harm to regular Americans.

This assertion needs proof before we maintain H1B workers in this nation.

Demand that IT workers stop blaming external factors for all of their job woes. An IT worker willing to relocate has a good chance of landing a job. An IT worker wanting a job to come to him has no room to complain.Give me a break. I can cite numerous cases of highly skilled and educated IT workers who are the cream of the crop and were making six figure incomes from consulting less than two years ago who can not now find a position for $40,000/year. yes, tehy are willing to travel and relocate. The big question is why you want Americans out of work so that foreign nationals can be employed? maybe you resent IT professionals or engineers or maybe doctors it really does not matter. You will note my proposal states that free access to our markets would be granted to those nations that in turn give free access to their markets. What you seem to want is only the USA to be subject to an unlimited exploitation by cheap foreign labor.

By the way I, you will note that my proposal include the same principles of free and fair trade for manufacturing as for IT and every othereconomic endevor. The modern IT worker has much in common with the factory worker of the early 20th century. It is no longer an elite field, untouchable to the masses. Too many people keep flocking to certification programs, recalling the laughable exhortation of the '60's that "plastics" were the future. What is needed is creativity. If you want to be a standard IT worker, you're going to be treated like a textile worker, because you are now a dime a dozen. Create, innovate, do something different: that's what the market will reward.

9 posted on 05/16/2003 6:05:36 AM PDT by harpseal (Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown)
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To: Mr. Bird
...An IT worker willing to relocate has a good chance of landing a job...

Yes, Calcutta is lovely this time of year. Isn't it almost time for the annual toss the dead into the river day?

What a sight.
And housing is cheap.

10 posted on 05/16/2003 6:07:20 AM PDT by the gillman@blacklagoon.com
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To: Mr. Bird
No offense, but how do we demand "free markets" from our competitors while closing our labor market at the same time?

Frankly, I don't believe we have the right to "demand" free markets in any sovereign foreign nation. They have sovereign jurisdiction over their domestic market the same as we have sovereign jurisdiction over ours. They have the right to establish a set of rules and regulations that they deem beneficial to their own citizenry just as we have the right to establish our own set of rules and regulations. Where do we get the "right" to "demand" that they change THEIR rules? That sounds just as obnoxious as giving some door-to-door salesman the right to bust down your front door to force you to endure his vacuum cleaner demonstration. Dang intrusive peddlers should be locked in jail instead.

51 posted on 05/16/2003 10:01:55 AM PDT by Willie Green (Go Pat Go!!!)
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To: Willie Green; Wolfie; ex-snook; Cacophonous; Poohbah; Jhoffa_; FITZ; arete; FreedomPoster; ...
What is needed is creativity. If you want to be a standard IT worker, you're going to be treated like a textile worker, because you are now a dime a dozen. Create, innovate, do something different: that's what the market will reward.

The creative people are a minority and this cannot be learned. The rest of the people who are not independently rich (ie who have to sell their labor) will have to live on the level of the poor in the Third World, if the nationality or borders are to be erased and labor is to become a mere commodity.

The new globalist world will be divided into three casts - those who own the wealth and hire others, those who are lucky or creative and can command high wages and the rest.

Those in the middle will live in constant fear to fall into the lower class and hope/struggle to join the upper privileged class.

The rich class will be cosmopolitan, corrupt and free from worry for economical survival, the middle class will be mobile, uprooted and servile, the lower class will be alienated, passive and demoralised.

To preserve such system the economical development will have to be inhibited in order to control the middle and to keep the poor down.

74 posted on 05/16/2003 5:39:07 PM PDT by A. Pole
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To: Mr. Bird
An IT worker willing to relocate has a good chance of landing a job. An IT worker wanting a job to come to him has no room to complain.

That's crap. Our company has been downsizing and outsourcing for the past two years. HR has been providing what limited assistance they can (or choose to) to provide the displaced workers with job leads. I help coordinate that program.

Not one former IT employee has gotten so much as a nibble. They are actively seeking employment, many on a nationwide basis. That is, those who haven't dropped off the map because they've been out of work for two years.

80 posted on 05/16/2003 11:23:54 PM PDT by Euro-American Scum
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To: Mr. Bird
If you want to be a standard IT worker, you're going to be treated like a textile worker, because you are now a dime a dozen. Create, innovate, do something different: that's what the market will reward.

Now that's something I can agree with. The only future for displaced IT workers is to show the kind of imagination you mentioned. The problem is, technical expertise and innovation do not necessarily go hand in glove.

81 posted on 05/16/2003 11:26:11 PM PDT by Euro-American Scum
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To: Mr. Bird
An IT worker willing to relocate has a good chance of landing a job. An IT worker wanting a job to come to him has no room to complain.

Not true. Last time I was laid off (in 2001) it took me 8 months to find a job, and this was when I was actively seeking employment at many areas of the country. I have a sterling resume, so you can't blame the long job search for lack of willingness to relocate, or inadequate qualifications.

111 posted on 05/25/2003 9:48:42 AM PDT by Mini-14
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To: Mr. Bird
those "free markets" are for products, not labor. If a group of engineers in India want to get together and start a company to compete with Cisco and Oracle, let them have at it. Instead, we are sending Cisco and Oracle to India 100 engineers at a time.
113 posted on 05/25/2003 8:11:50 PM PDT by oceanview
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