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To: savedbygrace
"If that's the rule, then the rule is an ass."
You are right "Woe is I" is indeed gramatically correct. What offends is the sound of the statement rather than the grammer.

"Woe is me" is really a phrase derived originally from the Bible. "Alas, woe is me". It has been around, repeated for thousands of years and has become so entrenched in the language the gramatically correct version is offensive to our sensibilities.

The sentence, "[W]oe is me" can't, technically, use an object form because the verb "is" won't take an object; it can be linked to a predicate nominative, which would be "I." On the other hand (take a deep breath), no one talks like that. The phrase "Woe is I" is actually the title of a popular book — Woe Is I: The Grammarphobe's Guide to Better English in Plain English — by Patricia T. O'Conner. I don't own the book, so I don't know what O'Conner says about this titular phrase, but I suspect it's like the detective who discovers, at long last, the murder victim's body: "My God, it's her!" he's going to shout, not "My God, it's she!" (which would be grammatically correct). Perhaps O'Conner makes an argument for why "me" would, in fact, be correct.

In short, because of the history of this phrase and others, it has become an exception to the rule but does not negate the rule.

186 posted on 05/16/2003 10:29:48 AM PDT by daylate-dollarshort (http://www.strato.net/~cmranch)
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To: daylate-dollarshort
Many, many years ago I was either told in school or read in a book that common usage incorporates certain words or phrases into our English books; e.g., "It's me." "Drive Slow." "John and myself." "Between you and I." Etc., etc.

Rules are for grammatarians--the speaking rules are for the many, many millions of other Americans.

That's between you and I.

187 posted on 05/16/2003 12:32:12 PM PDT by poppytpee
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To: daylate-dollarshort
I have that book, but it's been a long time since I read it. I think she makes the point that it's better to speak and write in ways that communicate with your audience than to always be grammatically correct. I'm probably overstating the point, but that's what I recall.
188 posted on 05/16/2003 12:46:23 PM PDT by savedbygrace
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To: daylate-dollarshort
Perhaps O'Conner makes an argument for why "me" would, in fact, be correct.

"Me" is correct because "Woe is I" sounds dorky.

In short, because of the history of this phrase and others, it has become an exception to the rule but does not negate the rule.

Suppose that scientists are studying a certain group of animals. They observe that the behavior of these animals seems to follow certain rules. For example, they may note that the alpha male always has the brightest plumage, and that if a male with brighter plumage enters the flock, it will be attacked until its plumage is no longer the brightest.

Suppose further that a scientist is watching a flock in which a male with brighter plumage than the alpha male enters but is not attacked; the flock continues to recognize the existing alpha male and pays no special attention to the new member. Would it be accurate to accuse the flock of acting improperly?

The rules of grammar as we know them were an attempt by 18th-century scholars to formulate rules to describe how learned people spoke. Although the rules are very useful as a guide for how to speak like a learned person, it is important to note that the rules are, strictly speaking, descriptive rather than prescriptive.

For myself, I rely on two rules: (1) Be clear and reasonably consise; (2) Convey the proper attitude (and don't look stupid except on purpose). The "rules" of grammar are a good guide for people trying to obey these two primary rules; 99% of the time, if there are two ways of saying something and one obeys the rules and the other doesn't, the one which obeys the rules is better. There are, however, some major exceptions to some of the codified rules.

190 posted on 05/16/2003 3:16:59 PM PDT by supercat (TAG--you're it!)
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