[VMI70]

Click on "Richmond's Morning News with Jimmy Barrett" which is on the upper left hand side of the page, and there you will find a small story and a poll(hint).

Scout Executive Director, Robert A. Tuggle 804-204-2611 atuggle@relcbsa.org (another hint)

Tuggle was interviewed this morning by Jimmy Barret, and judging by his responses to Barrett's questions, Tuggle gives a whole new meaning to the term "jellyfish".

They are soliciting suggestions for new names. I am sure many FReepers would have some great suggestions, so be sure to email them to Mr. Tuggle: atuggle@relcbsa.org

I guess mine will be "Ulysses S. Grant"

Below is the Scout Law. I wonder how the Robert E. Lee Council Directors who voted for the change measure up:

A Scout Director is:

trustworthy? - not very

loyal? - not

helpful? - not

friendly? - maybe

courteous? - maybe

kind? - not

obedient? - not

cheerful? - maybe

thrifty? - maybe

brave? - definitely not

clean? - maybe

reverent? - not

It's a sad commentary, isn't it?

[Scoutmaster]

Setting aside whether it was correct or not to change the Council name, your analysis of how how the Council Directors measure up against the twelve points of the Scout Law simply based on their vote to change the name is nonsense.

How does that vote deem them not "kind" or "reverent"?

Perhaps one or more believed that the change was right -- but knew it would be met with objection. Wouldn't that make him "brave"?

In short, personal attacks on the Council Directors based on a decision that has valid arguments on both sides is neither helpful to the discussion, nor Scout-like.

[nevergore]

As a southerner and a Scoutmaster, I have a deep abiding respect for the honor, dignity and heritage of the South regarding the states rights issues brought forth by the Confederacy.

The slavery component of the Confederate platform was it's immoral underbelly and will continue to haunt it for years....

Most BSA Council's are named after the area (ie: Atlanta Area Council) and not a individual.

Most of us could agree, regardless of our viewpoint, that Robert E. Lee was both inspirational and divisive in many ways.

The purpose of Scouting is not to make a politcal statement but to grow young boys into good, moral men and future leaders.

If the council felt a name change was appropriate, so be it, heritage supporters should pick and choose their battles wisely regarding heritage.....

Scouting is a great program for young boys....

NeverGore

[The_Reader_David]

An absolute outrage. Robert E. Lee, while a loyal Virginian, who served the Confederacy with distinction was, for his time at least, no racist, and opposed chatel slavery.

As an ex-Anglican, I am well aware of the incident during reconstruction when freed slaves first attended the same Episcopalian parish as Lee. When some went forward and knelt at the altar rail, the whites hung back until Lee went forward and knelt beside a black man.

This incident should be trumpetted to the PC nitwits and the sheep who are following them in dishonoring the great man's memory. (And I'm a born and bred Yankee.)

[robowombat]

This is I fear another example of Political Correctness being used to conduct cultural clensing of those figures and events not in consonance with the Gramsian campaign to produce the appropriate construct that America is the land of the guilty redeemed only by a handful of feminists, civil rights activists, left wing politicians and crusaders for the gay culture.

It is not surprising that R. E. Lee should be at the head of the cultural hit list. A profoundly conservatve man embued with a belief that in the teachings of Christianity lay man's best hope for improvement in this world and salvation in the next Lee's very existence is a rebuke to the cultural marxists and those who truckle to them.

Lee was, first and foremost, a Christian. He understood human imperfections and made allowances for them, and he was genuinely concerned for the well-being of everyone - even the enemies against whom he fought. Lee also believed in rewarding and promoting those who did their work well. Knowing all of this is key to understanding his leadership.

There are two mysteries about Lee, that perhaps have become clouded with the passage of years. The first is the fact that he fought against U.S.A.. Lee opposed secession, but opposed even more the idea of forcing the Southern states to remain in the Union at gunpoint. He considered himself a Virginian first and foremost, and when push came to shove, he could not take up arms against the Old Dominion state, where so many of his relatives and friends lived. At no time was Lee enthusiastic about the war; even in fighting, he sought to bring the war quickly to an end. Lee refused to permit his men to steal from or to harm any civilians, even in Union territory, and even though some Union soldiers had no such qualms about Confederate civilians.

The second mystery is his relationship with slavery. Lee opposed slavery and saw it as a moral evil. Even so, he wanted to abolish slavery gradually, because he was concerned that the former slaves should have the means to provide for themselves before they were set free. In this, he opposed the abolition movement, but he was no defender of slavery. This is no where better stated than in a letter written in late 1856 in response to a message by President Pierce.

Robert E. Lee letter dated December 27, 1856:
I was much pleased the with President's message. His views of the systematic and progressive efforts of certain people at the North to interfere with and change the domestic institutions of the South are truthfully and faithfully expressed. The consequences of their plans and purposes are also clearly set forth. These people must be aware that their object is both unlawful and foreign to them and to their duty, and that this institution, for which they are irresponsible and non-accountable, can only be changed by them through the agency of a civil and servile war.

There are few, I believe, in this enlightened age, who will not acknowledge that slavery as an institution is a moral and political evil. It is idle to expatiate on its disadvantages. I think it is a greater evil to the white than to the colored race. While my feelings are strongly enlisted in behalf of the latter, my sympathies are more deeply engaged for the former. The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, physically, and socially. The painful discipline they are undergoing is necessary for their further instruction as a race, and will prepare them, I hope, for better things. How long their servitude may be necessary is known and ordered by a merciful Providence. Their emancipation will sooner result from the mild and melting influences of Christianity than from the storm and tempest of fiery controversy. This influence, though slow, is sure. The doctrines and miracles of our Saviour have required nearly two thousand years to convert but a small portion of the human race, and even among Christian nations what gross errors still exist!

While we see the course of the final abolition of human slavery is still onward, and give it the aid of our prayers, let us leave the progress as well as the results in the hands of Him who, chooses to work by slow influences, and with whom a thousand years are but as a single day. Although the abolitionist must know this, must know that he has neither the right not the power of operating, except by moral means; that to benefit the slave he must not excite angry feelings in the master; that, although he may not approve the mode by which Providence accomplishes its purpose, the results will be the same; and that the reason he gives for interference in matters he has no concern with, holds good for every kind of interference with our neighbor, -still, I fear he will persevere in his evil course. . . . Is it not strange that the descendants of those Pilgrim Fathers who crossed the Atlantic to preserve their own freedom have always proved the most intolerant of the spiritual liberty of others?

Lee's character, though more complex than that embodied by the "marble man" image, remains about as fine as one can find in a public figure, then or now. The essense of Lee wsas his sacrifice to fulfill what he believed to be his duty. "One should never underestimate what the War Between the States cost Robert E. Lee . . . his home, his career, and virtually all his worldly goods," As Charles Crocker writes.

The South may have succumbed to overwhelming military force, but it triumphed in at least one sense. It produced perhaps the greatest symbol to come out of America's most disastrous conflict, someone who combined combat and moral excellence and who, once defeated, worked to heal the wounds of war. It is a record that deserves to be constantly recognized and commemorated

[octobersky]

bttt

[Moose4]

Sad indeed. Richmond has turned into a sad shadow of its former self. The liberal PC bastards that have taken the place over have turned it into a crime-ridden hellhole that's about as Southern as Indianapolis. Anybody remember the banner of Lee hung on the floodwall in Shockoe Bottom several years ago? Pulled down, defaced, and burned with the full and vocal support of a black Richmond city councilman.

The liberal PC crowd in Richmond is running from that city's rich history and instead plowing hellbent toward turning it into just another nanny-state big Northern city.

I lived there for four years (1993-1997) and it makes me sad to see what the town's become.

}:-)4

[Dante3]

The Council Directors obviously have an agenda. Robert E. Lee is honored even at the Arlington Cemetary where last time I was there long lines of people waited for the tour.

Just as pedophiles have occasionally infiltrated the Boy Scouts, so have those with a special agenda. If they do change the name, I would withdraw my son. I don't want him to be subjected to the PC or whatever other mind games some of these Directors have on their list.

[VMI70]

Many thanks to all of you who took the bait and allowed Baghdad Bob Nashville Walt to hijack the thread.

[knak]

I have been told by both of my parents that Robert E. Lee is part of my family. I beleive from my grandfathers side. I have always been proud of that. The boy scouts are losing a lot by doing this. They are becoming quite distasteful.

[VMI70]

Just checked the poll:
http://1140wrva.com/morningshow.html

Question of the Day:
How do you feel about Robert E. Lee being dropped by the boy scouts?
It's OK by me. 4.90 %
It's just another politically correct mistake. 95.10 %



It's too bad they don't show the number of votes.

[Temple Owl]

Let's go with Robert C (Sheets) Byrd. The Dems would be happy with that.

[Non-Sequitur]

This whole anti-confederate jihad has gotten way past the point of being ridiculous. The Civil War happened, slavery was a fact, trying to erase it all from public view isn't going to change it.

[Dante3]

I know of at least one person who is now considering taking the Boy Scouts out of his will and will no longer donate to the group.

[honeygrl]

The new name will probably end up Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson

[Ligeia]

Related threads:

Lee's Name Surrendered by Scouts (RTD)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/911411/posts

Where Are the Great Southern Leaders of Old?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/911986/posts

Scouts' change of patch criticized
http://www.washtimes.com/metro/20030515-1660504.htm

Patrick Badgley
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

Published May 15, 2003

A decision to disassociate Robert E. Lee's name from Boy Scouts in the Richmond area has critics saying Scout leaders are shunning a man who was the embodiment of American values.

"They could not find a better representative for Boy Scouts than General Lee," said Brag Bowling, commander of the Virginia Division of the Sons of Confederate Veterans and a former Boy Scout. He called the Confederate leader an "American hero" who is greatly respected and viewed as an honorable man by people of all races around the world.

King Salim Khalfani, Virginia director of the NAACP, hailed the decision made last week by the Robert E. Lee Council executive committee, which oversees 24 counties and four cities throughout central Virginia.

The Richmond Times-Dispatch reported yesterday that committee members made the change to fulfill the Boy Scouts mission of being all inclusive.

Mr. Khalfani said the council welcomed the change and felt no pressure to become more politically correct.

"It's not a slap at Robert E. Lee," he said. "But we don't want to deter any individual from joining the organization."

Mr. Khalfani also said the change would now encourage people to join.

Following the executive board's "overwhelming" vote for change, the council will get a new name in June 2004 and remove from Scout uniforms a logo bearing Lee's name.

The Boy Scouts of America is split into councils that direct troops and often use icons from regional history as part of their titles.

Executive board member Robert Tuggle told the Times-Dispatch the council still regards Lee as an "outstanding man, leader and influential person," and is open to suggestions from the public on what the council's new name should be.

Mr. Tuggle also said the council dropped the name, used since 1942, to try to represent the entire population, not because of political pressure or because of Lee's character.

Mr. Bowling disagreed, saying the council made the decision to be politically correct, not for financial reason or to attract more members.

He still supports the Boy Scouts, but said the leadership was "weak and caving in."

"Here's a group that has been PC'd to death, and now they're turning around and doing the same thing," he said, referring to the legal battle in which the U.S. Supreme Court ruled the organization could bar homosexuals from being troop leaders. The group also has been accused of discriminating against nonreligious boys because their parents are forced to sign a Declaration of Religious Principles.

He thinks many of the Richmond-area's roughly 22,000 registered Scouts and 7,500 leaders support using Lee's name, but said the Sons of the Confederate Veterans will not push the council to change its mind.

This is not the first time a debate about Lee has divided the Richmond area. In 1999, Richmond City Council member Sa'ad El-Amin objected to the city's plan to put a mural of Lee on a floodwall along the Haxall and Kanawha canals. Council members eventually decided to use the portrait to depict a part of Richmond's history.

At the time, Mr. El-Amin compared Lee to Adolf Hitler and said he did not deserve honors because he supported slavery.

Mr. Khalfani said Lee's name should have been removed from the council years ago, and he would not be surprised if parents pulled their children from the Scouts because of the decision.

"It's a funny thing here in Virginia, because the Confederate side is still fighting the Civil War," he said.

=====

I suppose the American Indian names of scout camps are next. If notable Southern historians continue to leave the battle for heritage recognition to the media whose only soundbites and rolodex contacts have SCV in their titles, the Virginia history they love to tout for tourist dollars will be eradicated and they'll have no one to blame but themselves.

Where are all the historians of note who got all riled up and drove Disney out of town when the Mouse wanted to build a theme park centered on American history. Their rallying cry at the time was that there should be no theme parks when visitors could experience "the real thing." It won't be long until there's not much, if anything, left to experience.

If they've lost their pride in Virginia, perhaps they should find another place to live not quite so offensive.


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=robert+e+lee+boy+scout+council+richmond

[Ligeia]

May 20, 2003

Lee

Robert E. Lee epitomizes nobility of character. To many, his name inspires awe. He represents the personal standards to which Scouts aspire. And it was his tragedy to lend his virtues and talents to an unjust cause.

The news from the Robert E. Lee Council of the Boy Scouts of America is the latest chapter in an argument in which the well-intended on both sides stake compelling claims. Those who cherish Lee and the stan- dards he represents draw the community's attention to humility and decency. Their pride cannot be questioned. Nor is it possible to dismiss or ridicule those who see homages to Lee as symbols of the indefensible. The Confederacy simply cannot be separated from slavery.

Lee loved Virginia. He could not take up arms against his land. The bondsman was not free to make a similar choice. If Lee's armies had won, many more years would have passed before emancipation. Victory by the Army of Northern Virginia would have extended slavery.

The many decades after the war cannot be separated from an era in which many who claimed Lee's spiritual inheritance imposed Jim Crow - i.e., segregation enforced by a powerful, merciless state. Human rights were sacrificed to the false idols of states' rights.

If Lee had personified evil, there would be no debate. If he had commanded U.S. troops on D-Day, there would be no debate, either. He was a good man who, when hit by history's freight train, went the wrong way. Yet when silence fell at Appomattox, he conducted himself in a manner subsequent generations often admired but seldom emulated. His life teaches lessons valuable to Scouts - and to others.

One point, though, ought to be clear. People who consider a statue of Abraham Lincoln an insult forfeit the standing to complain when individuals say Confederate memorials summon memories of repression and pain.

RTD

[Coleus]

Don't let it happen, start getting your chartered partner reps. from all the troops together to have them vote it down.

The BSA has becoming more PC in recent years. They push to have women and minorities on their national and local boards, on wood badge courses, and in all facets of scouting.

They have dumbed down the Scout Handbook and took out all the blood and guts of the program: stalking, animal tracks, star constellations, cooking with wood. Just look at a handbook from the 1960's and look at one today's. Most of the survival and paramilitary information is gone, starting a fire with 2 matches, etc. And those fairy like uniforms. Yuc, how international and PC can you get with that Purple (gay color) world brotherhood of Scouting patch embossed on all new uniforms, it's starting to look like the UN of Scouting. We here in the USA are much different than the rest of the worlds' programs.

[FreedomCalls]

... it was announced that the Council directors had voted to change its name from The Robert E. Lee Council, which has been in use for many decades, to something else.

To what? The Rachel Corrie Council?

[Rebelbase]

Very sad.

[Cucumber]

looks like the hatred towards Robert E. Lee started years ago.