[Willie Green]

ping

[Publius]

Good post, Willie. I've ridden most of the light rail systems in North America, and Portland rates with Calgary and San Diego as the best of the new systems.

Although the voters keep voting not to expand the system, the wisdom of the city fathers of Portland shows why we are a republic and not a democracy. Shut that system down, and you'll see gridlock.

[jimt]

Maximize boondoggles, minimize transportation.

NONE of these systems run unsubsidized by the taxpayers, and the rates of subsidization are nothing short of ridiculous. When the taxpayers have to fork over $15 per passenger mile, it becomes relatively obvious that we can save money by sending them in chauffeured limos, or by simply buying them new Cadillacs.

[B Knotts]

We, the people, voted on this light rail project.

We, the people, voted NO.

So, they're building it anyway.

[jagrmeister]

We have light rail in my area. The best parallel I can draw is the Simpsons episode where the huckster sells the town the monorail on a set of false promises. There was an article in the local newspaper about what we were promised (when it was being built decades ago):

- 85% of the light rail's fees were going to be paid by users. Reality: Users pay only 15% of fees.

- Light Rail was going to move at 35 MPH average. Reality: Light Rail moves at about 15 MPH.

There were others I can't remember precisely but essentially the ridership is going down, the cost is going up. The opportunity cost of not building highways when you're dumping the money on inefficient light-rail is very high.

[Maximum Leader]

The problem with light rail is of course that the highways are too often "freeways". The cost of driving is subsidized-- the gasoline taxes only pay a portion of the cost of road maintenance, and of course doesn't factor in the environmental costs, or the portion of the defense budget that guarantees a ready supply of gasoline. And who knows what the economic cost is of thousands of commuters stuck in rush hour gridlock.

I live in a city (Atlanta) that has a very weak mass transit system-- if you live in Gwinnett or Cobb Counties, there are no trains running into downtown Atlanta.

[foreverfree]

bump

[JimRed]

Mass transit is a wonderful idea that does not work very well in most places.

[gitmo]

Our city is struggling with these issues now.

The uptown development consortium is bashing "urban sprawl" constantly, pushing laws to force businesses into the central part of the city. The result: more and more traffic congestion as an increasing number of people have to go to the center of the city to work. Dumb gone to seed. Except for the uptown development consortium. Those folks are getting richer and richer through government intervention.

They have forced extravagent bus systems, with designated bus lanes on the highways. So we have 33% of the highways reserved for empty taxpayer-supplied empty vehicles.

So now, we have to go to light rail. The empty buses on empty highways aren't able to get enough people into the government-designated work area. So we are going to force people out of their homes, to build an extremely expensive government transportation system.

[JoeSchem]

[cost] $1 billion,

roughly 10,000 people are headed eastbound from downtown Portland. Another 9,000 are headed westbound. In both directions, at rush hour, about 26 percent of the total number of people traveling are on light rail.

Time to do the numbers, ladies and gentlemen.

10,000 + 9000 = 19,000 commuters

26 percent on light rail = 5000.

$1 billion cost divided by 5000 commuters = $200,000 per commuter.

Wouldn't it be cheaper just to pay them early retirement?

[rdb3]

No. I'll stay in my cars and SUV, thank you very much.

Doing bad things to bad people...

[Publius6961]

Speaking of false dichotomies...
Light rail or traffic congestion?
That's it?

You left out the poison pill of any type of public transportation these days: Cost

The public bureaucratic mentality is simply unable to cope with costs.
When "public" money is involved, no limits are seen to either employee demands or fare levels or using other related costs as a cash cows.

Of course neglecting normal highways and freeways is becoming increasingly transparent as an argument for a new limitlessly expensive public transportation system.

[SamAdams76]

Willie, I would like very much to ride the light rail to work rather than deal with the traffic on the freeways. But there are things about light rail that they need to fix. For instance, they don't sell you beer on the ride home. Hell, they don't even let you drink a beer on the ride home even if you bring your own (they get mad if you do that). They also don't have enough seats to go around so I end up standing up the whole time (I always get up to let the women sit). I would like to sit down on a train so that I can get some work done on my laptop - or drink my beer.

If they can get those two things fixed, I'm riding.

[Koblenz]

The problem with mass transit systems is "LAST MILE". Mass Transit works great into Manhattan and other large cities, because most of the jobs are either near a station, or there's a supplemental transportation system, such as a subway, which can get people to where they're going. But not a lot of jobs are being added in downtown areas. They're being added in the suburbs. There are many reasons for this: like it or not, people with families want lawns, and therefore want to live in the suburbs. Next, taxes. This is often the primary reason. Property taxes, as well as higher income taxes, drive many companies to the suburbs, where rents are also considerably cheaper. Finally, environmental. What does environmental have to do with white collar jobs? Well, due to EPA laws, you buy a property, you're responsible for environmental damage, even if it was done before you bought it. So you have the choice of building in downtown, where there could have been environmental contamination in 1930, or you buy an old corn farm out in the burbs, and make it into an office park. No risk of environmental contamination.

So you've got all these people living and working in disparate areas in the suburbs. You've got mass transit, but the nearest stop may be 4 or 5 miles from the office park. Some larger office parks have a minivan, but not all. Add to the fact a lot of people have to work until their job is done, and they might miss the last train home. So they drive. That's a problem here in Connecticut: there's mass transit, but a lot of companies aren't that close to the stops.

[BureaucratusMaximus]

Maximize transit, minimize traffic

Screw that...

Maximize horsepower, minimize MPG!

[TexasCajun]

We'll have a little choo-choo train in Houston soon.

But you'll have to drive in from the suburbs to the Astrodome to catch the choo-choo train the Medical Center.

...ya better git there early, you'll be making 20+ stops before get to your destination.