Posted on 05/08/2003 3:16:09 PM PDT by risk
Hitler's Britain (2 ´ 50'), produced by AAC FACT™, Lark International for PBS and Lion Television, examines one of the most intriguing questions of our time: what would the Nazis have done if they had conquered Britain? Told in two equally compelling parts, Thinking the Unthinkable: The Nazi Occupation of Britain and Churchill's Last Stand: The Secret of the British Resistance, Hitler's Britain will examine the unsettling possibilities of an alternative world order, and the chilling consequences that Hitler's victory would have had on the UK and beyond. Using reconstruction and graphic manipulation, the programme shows how Hitler's plans would have transformed Britain from a gentle, free-spirited country into an unimaginably harsh and repressive regime.
That long, I thought it was three to five, but you could be right. Still I think if we had to get troops into Ireland and Iceland we could have done it very quickly. We already had established bases in Iceland.
Yes I know, Ulster county. I meant to say the Belfast area of Ulster.
Even Macksey's speculation about a July "bounce" relied on sealift that did not exist at the time. He assumed German foresight in assembling it starting in late May, while assuming that the British would either not have noticed this being assembled, or done nothing about it.
Alternate histories which assume sudden attacks of common sense by one side are bad enough. Throwing in sudden attacks of ahistorical incompetence (the Royal Navy of 1940 was quite competent save in its carrier leaders) are worse - comparable to alternate histories which give Hitler the sweet disposition of Lassie.
That's what makes Operation Sealion a joke. A tactical air force with no army to support. No German strategic air force. If Hitler was a military genius, one would not know it by his examples.
Good point, thanks for the correction both in terms of the order of events and in the assumptions of the outcome.
Yes I know, Ulster county. I meant to say the Belfast area of Ulster.
Hitler lost initiative in 3 Battles which could have lead to the route and ultimate collapse of Soviet Forces.
Failure to Take Moscow...[Germany had suffered 200,000 killed up to the stalemate,14 miles from Moscow in 1941;But Soviet losses were beyond the horrific...Russia was on the brink...Zhukov and Stalin knew it.]
Failure to take Stalingrad [On Sept 17th 1942...Geobbels was ready to print the headline "Stalingrad Gefallen"..seeking final confirmation from Von Paulus of 6th Army,who said wait..just a few more days.
Paulus never knew that Russian General Chuikov and Yeremenko had nothing left in Stalingrad...the Germans were a few hundred yards from the boat landing on the Volga...that evening..Stalin sent a reserve Army over Volga...the tide turned...Hitler eventually lost 6th Army in a slaughter and never achieved the oil of the Caspian.]
Failure to press forward a Victory at Kursk in 1943...[Germany had infact decimated Russia's mechanized Army at Prokhorovka...Field Marshall Manstein knew it..Panzer units Totenkopf,Leibstandarte and Das Reich were still mowing down the last T-34's when Hitler cancelled Operation Citadel]
During Stalingrad....Hitler went marose over the direct criticisms he recieved from his Generals and advisors.
Sulking in his dungeon redoubt...he despised His Generals...refusing to take meals with them in the future.
Had Hitler listened to his Generals..a different history would have unfolded..the war would have gone on much,much longer.
That's what makes Operation Sealion a joke. A tactical air force with no army to support. No German strategic air force. If Hitler was a military genius, one would not know it by his examples.
Even Macksey's speculation about a July "bounce" relied on sealift that did not exist at the time. He assumed German foresight in assembling it starting in late May, while assuming that the British would either not have noticed this being assembled, or done nothing about it.
Alternate histories which assume sudden attacks of common sense by one side are bad enough. Throwing in sudden attacks of ahistorical incompetence (the Royal Navy of 1940 was quite competent save in its carrier leaders) are worse - comparable to alternate histories which give Hitler the sweet disposition of Lassie.
I think we saw a glimpse of it in "W" in the last 6 months. He knew, as Churchill did, what he had to do.
We were very lucky Hitler did not seize Russia, if he did we would have him at our border in Alaska. The Japanese had invaded the southern islands, and I think those two countries had plans to invade the US and Canada. Germany was working on long-range bombers which could have easily hit US targets in the interior from that range.
But Hitler's racist contempt, especially of the Asiatic and Muslim sectors of the USSR, caused the nationalists of those states to feel that they were better off with Stalin - the devil they knew.
Hitler considered the Slavs to be sub-human, so one can only imagine what he thought of the Muslims and Asiastics. Hitler's worst enemy was Hitler, he actually could have beaten Russia with the right strategy.
Surprised me to learn the Germans had nothing resembling our landing craft. Sea Lion planning relied on motorized and some towed Rhine River barges for both assault and supply. Pretty spooky in the fall with Channel weather so unpredictable. The RAF's survival just furthered the doubts about logistics.
If the Germans had succeded in forcing a landing, our available force was tiny, not only limited by numbers but by available shipping. As it was we rushed everything we could spare over there with the first organized units landing in June, 1942. By the end of September, 1942 we only had 188,497 (79,757 of which were ground forces) in the UK. Planning estimates for five combat divisions with their supply and AAF contingents for Torch were estimated at 427,000 men. That shows how long the logistical tail is.
If the Brits had had to fight a ground campaign on their home turf, whatever shipping we managed to get through the U-boats would probably have been loaded with supplies, not troops. By the end of September, 1942 we had shipped 608, 007 long tons of cargo over there. At the peak rate you could barely maintain five combat divisions which required over 1,000 tons per day each(with their support troops). This doesn't count the buildup. [Source for all this: Logistical Support of the Armies, one of the Army's Green Books. Can you tell I enjoy logistics?]
Would Britain have fought them in the streets; would Stalin have pounced; would FDR have taken the political risk of getting our small force massacred; would Ireland have revolted? Tough questions, but fun to speculate about.
That is true. However we landed an army first to be tactical with, rather than try to bring the Germans to their knees with just p-38's and B-25's. The equivalent of what the Luftwaffe tried to do in the Summer of 1940.
Weather, British radar, and the RAF Fighter Command would have made this a dubious military gamble at best.
Yes. The Brits planned to allow the invasion to get underway, then flood the channel with oil from pipelines they had already laid in the channel, as well as sink oil tankers at the right time to engulf the majority of the German amphibious force in an inferno. The lucky ones would have drowned.
I'll make my previous lengthy ramble about logistics moot. By the end of June, 1940 we had exactly six army divisions in existence - and none of them armored. Mobilization didn't crank up until the Battle of Britain was underway. If the Germans had successfully landed soon after BoB, they would have had to wait about a year if they wanted to tangle with us. The 34th Division did it the quickest. A National Guard unit, it went from mobilization to the boat in eleven months, about six months quicker than any of the other early ones.
As it was, getting our forces mobilized, recruited, organized, trained (after a fashion), and shipped in time to participate in Torch in November, 1942 is an unappreciated miracle.
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