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G3K: "Lots of water is not an example of self-assembly. Neither are snowflakes which are just the result of freezing of water and perhaps the power of the wind in giving them different shapes. They lack complexity. They are totally due to natural forces, and very simple ones at that."

Even though this argument is only tangentially related to evolution (evolution does not deal with the origins of life, just the process by which life adapts over time to the environment), what about viruses? They can be observed self-assembling in a test tube without any evidence of little angels pushing their little molecules around. Likewise for every single celled organism. We have seen the mechanism of self-assembly. We have never observed a miraculous creation. Which one makes more sense scientifically?

G3K: "The DNA in the simplest organism however, the arrangement of it is not only not due to any natural forces, but it cannot be due to it. Otherwise we would not be able to find all the possible ways in which 3 different bit pairs with 3 possible values (64 in all) appear in the DNA sequences of all species. Such self assembly is totally unknown anywhere in the natural world. For anything even close, one must go and look at humanly designed things."

First, DNA is not an organism. Second, there is no need for anyone to "find all the possible ways" to make a certain sequence to exist in all species. In fact, with evolution you would expect to find common sequences among organisms with common ancestors.

For bookkeeping purposes, we're still waiting for your definition for what passes as self assembly since you've rejected so many examples. And we are still waiting for the reason you claim that all members of a species must evolve together because any genetic difference within the pool will prohibit mating.

Even though this argument is only tangentially related to evolution

I did not say it was. This was regarding the issue of abiogenesis and the claim by some atheists here that matter can self assemble and thus create life.

We have seen the mechanism of self-assembly.

Only in living things. And they do not really self assemble anyway. They follow the program set out by the parents. G3K: "The DNA in the simplest organism however, the arrangement of it is not only not due to any natural forces, but it cannot be due to it. Otherwise we would not be able to find all the possible ways in which 3 different bit pairs with 3 possible values (64 in all) appear in the DNA sequences of all species. Such self assembly is totally unknown anywhere in the natural world. For anything even close, one must go and look at humanly designed things."

First, DNA is not an organism.

Seems you need some reading comprehension classes. I did not say that, I said ""The DNA in the simplest organism ". Kindly read what was said before you attempt to refute.

Second, there is no need for anyone to "find all the possible ways" to make a certain sequence to exist in all species. In fact, with evolution you would expect to find common sequences among organisms with common ancestors.

Continuing to discuss what is not being discussed and to create confusion. The post is about abiogenesis. It is pretty clear from the post what it is about. You are attempting to refute something to which the post does not apply.

For bookkeeping purposes, we're still waiting for your definition for what passes as self assembly since you've rejected so many examples.

Actually I made it quite clear in the post you responded to. Inert matter assembling itself together to produce a complex system which is not created by known natural forces. Which indeed could not have been created by known natural forces such as chemical reactions, nucler reactions, wind, etc. This is what had to have happened for DNA to self assemble to create a living thing. Materialists cannot provide an example of anything even a thousand times simpler assembling itself in such a manner. The reason is that matter cannot self-assemble itself in complex ways. Only intelligent designers can assemble matter in ways which have nothing to do with naturally known forces.