Replies

Thank you so very much for your explication, unspun!

Using the oppposites test, the opposite of "willfulness" to me would be "passivity." As I look around, I don't even see an opposite of the word, "will" except for "willlessness" and I think this is not in the dictionary because either one has a God given will or one isn't a being, so I'd have to shift to thinking that word would be "null" or "dead" or "inanimate." While sometimes and in some ways we need to be passive, we certainly have perfect responsibility to utilize our wills in compliance with God at all times.

Webster’s online doesn’t list the antonym for willfulness, but the synonym listed is unruly which further describes willfulness as follows: WILLFUL implies an obstinate determination to have one's own way .

Evidently you (like betty boop) are not using the word willful in that sense. I gather from your statement that you believe faith requires initiative and engagement (as in gears) - otherwise, one would be sitting there like a box of rocks or else just spinning their wheels.

OTOH, I use the term willfulness in the common usage - where unruliness would be the synonym and hence, obedience would be the antonym. That fundamental difference in word usage has caused much of our disagreement on this thread.

But laying the word usage aside, unspun, you and I have a further disagreement concerning how a born-again believer ought to deal with his self-will. To me it is a matter of theology (like a Peter v Paul dispute) and I don’t have a problem with your view being different from mine. But evidently the difference troubles you. Perhaps you feel I am dangerously misguided?

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I am very “Berean” on spiritual matters. I’ve read your post, listening for a confirmation in the Spirit and then studied Scriptures, both what you’ve cited and others known to me and to which I feel led in the Spirit:

And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming [thither] went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Acts 17:10-11

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. – I Cor 2:12-16

For Lurkers, the dispute is basically as follows:

Unspun sees the born-again believer retaining self-will which he uses in an ongoing relationship with the Lord. He cites Romans 12:1-2 for all the action verbs as opposed to passive verbs. He cites John 5:18-20 and John 12:48-50 as evidence that Jesus alone has the grant of authority to speak and do under the Father’s direction. He asserts that man remains man and his responsibility is to God. Although he acknowledges the spiritual nature of man is intermingled with God, he keeps the two mostly separate with man observing, acting and reacting, etc. A previous Freeper used the word “dance” which I offer again as a metaphor for this type of relationality, i.e. one leads, one follows, both “wills” survive.

I read a different answer in the Scriptures (quoted below.) In my reading, the believer surrenders his self-will completely to Jesus and abides in Him and He, in return, abides in the believer and produces fruit of the Spirit, i.e. the believer is the vessel of His will and not self-will. I assert that spiritual fruits cannot be produced by mortal effort. There is no relationality or dancing, because the two are become one. The believer gives up his self-will; he retains his identity but never again exists apart from Jesus in any practical sense of the word “exist.”

My “Berean” analysis of unspun’s Scriptures:

Unspun offers this passage to show action verbs: I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. – Romans 12:1-2

The believer is told to be transformed by renewing his mind. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus commands us to be perfect --- which is a state of being and not an action:

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. – Matthew 5:48

Based on the following passage, I readily assert that being perfect is something man cannot do. It requires more (which will be discussed along with the subsequent passages quoted by unspun.)

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; - Romans 3:23

Unspun offers these passages to illustrate Jesus’ authority and infers from them that Jesus alone has such authority:

Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. – John 5:18-20

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. – John 12:48-50

Certainly Jesus was sent by the Father, the only begotten son of God. He is without peer. I never would dispute such. That God speaks through believers is supported by the existence of Scriptures.

To my spirit, the most important lesson of the passages unspun quoted is that Christ is the vessel of the Father’s will, not His own will. And, based on other Scriptures, that submission is what He wants of us as well:

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. – John 15:4-8
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. – Galatians 5:22-25

The result of my “Berean” analysis is that I find no error in my previous position and thus will not change. I shall continue to pour myself into Him and try very hard to mortify my self-interest. The less of me, the more of Him, the better:

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. – Proverbs 3:5-7

Unspun’s position also features the above kind of humility, mine may have an additional underline on meekness.

(Now the man Moses [was] very meek, above all the men which [were] upon the face of the earth.) – Num 12:13
The meek will he guide in judgment: and the meek will he teach his way. – Psalm 25:9
For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation. – Psalm 149:4
Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. – Matthew 5:5
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. – Matthew 11:29
Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass. – Matthew 21:5
But [let it be] the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, [even the ornament] of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price. – I Peter 3:4

Thank you so much for this excellent and timely discussion!